{"language": "en", "segments": [{"text": " Thank you.", "start": 27.980000000000004, "stop": 29.66, "id": 0}, {"text": " Good morning. Good afternoon or good evening depending on where you are. My name", "start": 59.0, "stop": 64.4, "id": 1}, {"text": " is Jenny Rose Halperin and I'm the executive director of library features, and we", "start": 64.4, "stop": 68.58, "id": 2}, {"text": " are co hosting this webinar with the Internet Archive and are beyond excited to", "start": 68.58, "stop": 75.32, "id": 3}, {"text": " have our two illustrious scholars with us today.", "start": 75.32, "stop": 78.18, "id": 4}, {"text": " So I'm going to start by by suggesting that folks can share their", "start": 78.67999999999999, "stop": 84.76, "id": 5}, {"text": " questions in the q amp a.", "start": 84.76, "stop": 86.4, "id": 6}, {"text": " So here are some example questions you might be asking in the q amp a section,", "start": 87.5, "stop": 91.68, "id": 7}, {"text": " you can also upvote questions if you want to see them asked you can respond to", "start": 92.04, "stop": 96.9, "id": 8}, {"text": " questions, we'll have plenty of time for q amp a at the", "start": 96.9, "stop": 99.52, "id": 9}, {"text": " end, a little bit over 30 minutes.", "start": 99.52, "stop": 101.52, "id": 10}, {"text": " So there's plenty of time for your questions.", "start": 101.94, "stop": 104.18, "id": 11}, {"text": " So again, my name is Jenny Rose Halperin and I'm the executive director of", "start": 106.26, "stop": 110.14, "id": 12}, {"text": " library futures library futures is a new advocacy organization that's standing up", "start": 110.14, "stop": 115.5, "id": 13}, {"text": " for the rights of libraries in the digital age, we work on technology, education,", "start": 115.5, "stop": 120.44, "id": 14}, {"text": " advocacy and community. And we're always welcoming new coalition members. Chris", "start": 121.1, "stop": 127.34, "id": 15}, {"text": " Freeland is also here from the Internet Archive.", "start": 127.34, "stop": 129.7, "id": 16}, {"text": " And he will be sharing links throughout along with other folks from the", "start": 130.92, "stop": 137.78, "id": 17}, {"text": " Internet Archive, like Caitlin Olson, and they will be.", "start": 137.78, "stop": 141.84, "id": 18}, {"text": " We will all be co hosting as well throughout so if you have any questions, and", "start": 141.84, "stop": 146.88, "id": 19}, {"text": " definitely please feel free to drop them in the chat will also", "start": 146.88, "stop": 150.18, "id": 20}, {"text": " be dropping links in the chat throughout.", "start": 150.18, "stop": 151.8, "id": 21}, {"text": " I am very excited to introduce our speakers.", "start": 153.56, "stop": 156.72, "id": 22}, {"text": " Michelle Wu, Blake Reed, and our moderator Amanda Lewandowski.", "start": 158.32, "stop": 162.44, "id": 23}, {"text": " [...] Reed studies teaches and practices at the intersection", "start": 163.6, "stop": 166.92, "id": 24}, {"text": " of law policy and technology.", "start": 166.92, "stop": 168.92, "id": 25}, {"text": " He is a clinical professor at Colorado law, where he serves as the director of", "start": 169.94, "stop": 173.98, "id": 26}, {"text": " the Samuel Senglushko technology law and policy clinics TLPC, and as the faculty", "start": 173.98, "stop": 179.7, "id": 27}, {"text": " director of the telecom and platforms initiative at the silicon", "start": 179.7, "stop": 183.82, "id": 28}, {"text": " flat, flat iron center.", "start": 183.82, "stop": 185.62, "id": 29}, {"text": " Michelle Wu was the associate dean for library services law library director and", "start": 186.42, "stop": 191.86, "id": 30}, {"text": " professor of law at the Georgetown University Law Center. Prior to Georgetown she", "start": 191.86, "stop": 196.24, "id": 31}, {"text": " served in multiple administrative library and faculty capacities at three other", "start": 196.24, "stop": 200.92, "id": 32}, {"text": " law schools, George Washington University, the University of Houston and Hofstra.", "start": 200.92, "stop": 205.66, "id": 33}, {"text": " She has a BA from the University of California at San Diego, a JD from West from", "start": 206.24, "stop": 211.58, "id": 34}, {"text": " California Western School of Law, and an M library from the", "start": 211.58, "stop": 215.54, "id": 35}, {"text": " University of Washington.", "start": 215.54, "stop": 217.12, "id": 36}, {"text": " The original, the originator of the legal theory underpinning control digital", "start": 217.76, "stop": 221.42, "id": 37}, {"text": " lending. Michelle has also talked talk copyright and copyright licensing and", "start": 221.42, "stop": 225.88, "id": 38}, {"text": " regularly speaks at library conferences on these topics.", "start": 225.88, "stop": 228.64, "id": 39}, {"text": " She has authored or edited several dozen publications on copyright library", "start": 228.64, "stop": 233.7, "id": 40}, {"text": " management and leadership, and has provided leadership training for", "start": 233.7, "stop": 237.84, "id": 41}, {"text": " prospective directors and associate dean.", "start": 237.84, "stop": 239.9, "id": 42}, {"text": " Amanda live and Dowski is an associate professor at Georgetown law, where her", "start": 240.56, "stop": 245.62, "id": 43}, {"text": " scholarship examines how intellectual property law can be used creatively to", "start": 245.62, "stop": 249.8, "id": 44}, {"text": " address challenging social issues that cross cut privacy and technology, such as", "start": 249.8, "stop": 254.1, "id": 45}, {"text": " non consensual pornography biased artificial intelligence, secret surveillance", "start": 254.1, "stop": 258.5, "id": 46}, {"text": " technology, and invasive face surveillance. Thank you so much for joining us", "start": 258.5, "stop": 263.7, "id": 47}, {"text": " everyone and I'm sorry if you could hear it's a bit of an occupational", "start": 263.7, "stop": 266.66, "id": 48}, {"text": " hazard of working from home.", "start": 266.66, "stop": 268.52, "id": 49}, {"text": " But I am sorry if you could hear my dog behind me, who was walking around who's", "start": 268.52, "stop": 275.36, "id": 50}, {"text": " been walking around through this very short intro. And so I'm so excited to hand", "start": 275.36, "stop": 281.54, "id": 51}, {"text": " it over to Amanda to kick it off and discuss these two new papers and scholarship", "start": 281.54, "stop": 287.48, "id": 52}, {"text": " in copyright librarianship accessibility and the law and technology. So over", "start": 287.48, "stop": 293.56, "id": 53}, {"text": " to you Amanda Thank you so much.", "start": 293.56, "stop": 295.14, "id": 54}, {"text": " Hello, I am so delighted to be here with all of you but especially with Michelle", "start": 297.36, "stop": 301.82, "id": 55}, {"text": " and Blake whose work I just admire so darn much and I cannot wait to get into.", "start": 301.82, "stop": 306.16, "id": 56}, {"text": " So I'm actually going to turn it over to them in just a second to speak about", "start": 306.66, "stop": 309.84, "id": 57}, {"text": " their own work because who better to introduce it than the authors themselves,", "start": 309.84, "stop": 313.24, "id": 58}, {"text": " but to set up that conversation.", "start": 313.46, "stop": 315.18, "id": 59}, {"text": " I just want to say that Michelle and Blake both take very different approaches to", "start": 315.18, "stop": 319.54, "id": 60}, {"text": " the challenges that are created by copyright maximalism but there are a few", "start": 319.54, "stop": 323.78, "id": 61}, {"text": " common approaches spanning copyrights heated history, it's problematic present,", "start": 323.78, "stop": 328.94, "id": 62}, {"text": " and it's possibly fantastic future. And there are also a few shared themes", "start": 329.08, "stop": 334.14, "id": 63}, {"text": " between the two papers and I love a triplet as you just saw. So we'll be", "start": 334.14, "stop": 338.36, "id": 64}, {"text": " addressing those three themes throughout this conversation.", "start": 338.36, "stop": 340.56, "id": 65}, {"text": " And those are overarching going to be policies, capitalism, and accessibility", "start": 341.08, "stop": 345.88, "id": 66}, {"text": " doesn't that sound like fun. And so let's dive in and I'm going to turn it over", "start": 345.88, "stop": 349.28, "id": 67}, {"text": " straight to Michelle to share a little bit more about her work.", "start": 349.28, "stop": 352.06, "id": 68}, {"text": " Amanda, so there's more time for Q&A. I'm not going to recap the entire paper but", "start": 354.1, "stop": 359.34, "id": 69}, {"text": " really just focus on two major points.", "start": 359.34, "stop": 361.22, "id": 70}, {"text": " The first point is on the purpose of copyright, which has always been the", "start": 361.8, "stop": 365.5, "id": 71}, {"text": " creation of dissemination of information. And that's what this flows very", "start": 365.5, "stop": 369.2, "id": 72}, {"text": " logically from the design of our nation and our government, which best powers in", "start": 369.2, "stop": 373.04, "id": 73}, {"text": " the people, not a monarch.", "start": 373.04, "stop": 374.58, "id": 74}, {"text": " So that's in all of our interests for us to have informed voters and in order to", "start": 374.58, "stop": 380.58, "id": 75}, {"text": " be informed they actually have to have access to information.", "start": 380.58, "stop": 382.92, "id": 76}, {"text": " The founders and Congress decided that the best way to generate and spread", "start": 383.54, "stop": 387.16, "id": 77}, {"text": " information was through a balance of private and public interest.", "start": 387.16, "stop": 390.1, "id": 78}, {"text": " With the set of private interest, that really is the author's interest. So", "start": 390.92, "stop": 394.38, "id": 79}, {"text": " copyright grants limited control rights to the author, and that's essentially for", "start": 394.38, "stop": 398.48, "id": 80}, {"text": " her to generate income from selling her work.", "start": 398.48, "stop": 400.36, "id": 81}, {"text": " And that hopefully incentivizes her to create more. But after a copyrighted item", "start": 400.36, "stop": 405.42, "id": 82}, {"text": " is sold, the private interest in that item is exhausted, leaving only the public", "start": 405.42, "stop": 409.6, "id": 83}, {"text": " interest in consumption and the further spread of information.", "start": 409.6, "stop": 412.38, "id": 84}, {"text": " Now we will note there are a few exceptions, mostly in the public use of", "start": 413.1, "stop": 417.14, "id": 85}, {"text": " copyrighted work, but that is beyond the scope of this paper", "start": 417.14, "stop": 419.52, "id": 86}, {"text": " so I'm going to skip over that for now.", "start": 419.52, "stop": 421.14, "id": 87}, {"text": " In practice, what does the balance between private and public interest mean in", "start": 421.14, "stop": 425.78, "id": 88}, {"text": " copyright? It means that the author makes money when she sells a copy of her", "start": 425.78, "stop": 429.32, "id": 89}, {"text": " work, say a book, but that the purchaser, once they purchased it, can lend,", "start": 429.32, "stop": 433.48, "id": 90}, {"text": " donate, resell, destroy or bequeath it without the author's permission.", "start": 433.88, "stop": 437.74, "id": 91}, {"text": " This downstream usability means that an item's usefulness expands", "start": 438.34, "stop": 441.68, "id": 92}, {"text": " far beyond that original purchase.", "start": 441.68, "stop": 443.36, "id": 93}, {"text": " The key is that copyright was never intended to be a barrier to information. Its", "start": 443.36, "stop": 448.36, "id": 94}, {"text": " balance was designed to maximize both the creation and spread of information.", "start": 448.36, "stop": 452.56, "id": 95}, {"text": " So the second point in my paper is about how major publishers in books, music,", "start": 453.46, "stop": 458.34, "id": 96}, {"text": " television and movie publishing are engaged in a pattern of practice that", "start": 458.52, "stop": 463.28, "id": 97}, {"text": " undermines this very purpose of copyright.", "start": 463.28, "stop": 465.4, "id": 98}, {"text": " And I'm going to talk about just one example here, but I'm happy to talk about", "start": 466.58, "stop": 470.9, "id": 99}, {"text": " others in a Q&A if there's interest. The example that I'll look at is licensing.", "start": 470.9, "stop": 474.92, "id": 100}, {"text": " So major publishers in these fields have largely eliminated the ability to", "start": 475.5, "stop": 479.88, "id": 101}, {"text": " purchase a copy of the work when it comes to electronic content.", "start": 479.88, "stop": 482.66, "id": 102}, {"text": " So sometimes this is hidden in a way that I think users don't really realize what", "start": 482.66, "stop": 488.4, "id": 103}, {"text": " they're losing. So, for example, when you buy an e-book on Amazon, you actually", "start": 488.4, "stop": 493.22, "id": 104}, {"text": " have not purchased that book.", "start": 493.22, "stop": 495.2, "id": 105}, {"text": " What you have done is you're licensing access to that book. Underterms that", "start": 495.72, "stop": 499.76, "id": 106}, {"text": " Amazon says it can change at any time without notice, including deleting that", "start": 499.76, "stop": 504.88, "id": 107}, {"text": " book entirely from your library.", "start": 504.88, "stop": 506.54, "id": 108}, {"text": " Many of the public interests that I mentioned at the start, the right to lend,", "start": 507.36, "stop": 511.62, "id": 109}, {"text": " donate, resell, bequease, are excluded or limited in these licenses, which means", "start": 511.9, "stop": 518.08, "id": 110}, {"text": " that many of the paths designed by copyright to allow for widespread downstream", "start": 518.08, "stop": 522.48, "id": 111}, {"text": " use, particularly by those who do not have the personal means to buy it at its", "start": 522.48, "stop": 526.82, "id": 112}, {"text": " original price, those paths have been cut off.", "start": 526.82, "stop": 529.02, "id": 113}, {"text": " In addition, many common personal uses, such as recording a TV program, are also", "start": 529.8199999999999, "stop": 535.22, "id": 114}, {"text": " prohibited. They would normally be legal under copyright under fair use, but in a", "start": 535.22, "stop": 540.02, "id": 115}, {"text": " service like Netflix, recording that program is considered a", "start": 540.02, "stop": 543.18, "id": 116}, {"text": " violation of its contract terms.", "start": 543.18, "stop": 544.76, "id": 117}, {"text": " The replacement of selling with licensing doesn't just harm the public or", "start": 545.7600000000001, "stop": 549.94, "id": 118}, {"text": " individual users, but also offers.", "start": 549.94, "stop": 551.8, "id": 119}, {"text": " The e-books available at your public library, for example, often cost many times", "start": 552.6, "stop": 556.76, "id": 120}, {"text": " more than the cost of that print equivalent or the cost", "start": 556.76, "stop": 559.9, "id": 121}, {"text": " of that e-book to an individual user.", "start": 559.9, "stop": 561.8, "id": 122}, {"text": " And these licenses usually expire after a certain number of uses, say 24 or after", "start": 561.8, "stop": 567.72, "id": 123}, {"text": " a certain period of time, say a year, which means that the same content has to be", "start": 567.72, "stop": 572.02, "id": 124}, {"text": " repurchased repeatedly to retain access.", "start": 572.02, "stop": 574.4, "id": 125}, {"text": " As the library's budget does not magically increase to accommodate these", "start": 575.24, "stop": 578.82, "id": 126}, {"text": " arbitrarily increased costs, the library ends up spending the same amount of", "start": 578.82, "stop": 582.98, "id": 127}, {"text": " money while obtaining fewer books.", "start": 582.98, "stop": 585.5, "id": 128}, {"text": " This means that fewer authors' works are being purchased, and fewer authors will", "start": 585.5, "stop": 590.32, "id": 129}, {"text": " give a non-monetary benefit of heightened exposure", "start": 590.32, "stop": 592.5, "id": 130}, {"text": " to their work through library access.", "start": 592.5, "stop": 594.34, "id": 131}, {"text": " While some authors, specifically best-selling ones, will undoubtedly benefit from", "start": 596.02, "stop": 600.28, "id": 132}, {"text": " this type of licensing, most authors won't.", "start": 600.28, "stop": 602.4, "id": 133}, {"text": " The publishers, on the other hand, can make a great deal more money off fewer", "start": 602.88, "stop": 606.12, "id": 134}, {"text": " titles while also reaping the benefits of lower costs of e", "start": 606.12, "stop": 609.72, "id": 135}, {"text": "-production and e-distribution.", "start": 609.72, "stop": 611.34, "id": 136}, {"text": " Now, I've already detailed some of the short-term costs of these licenses, the", "start": 611.34, "stop": 616.52, "id": 137}, {"text": " loss of all those downstream uses, but I want to mention or emphasize the fact", "start": 616.52, "stop": 621.46, "id": 138}, {"text": " that the poor are disproportionately harmed, as many may have no means to gain", "start": 621.46, "stop": 625.38, "id": 139}, {"text": " access to these resources without the secondhand", "start": 625.38, "stop": 627.96, "id": 140}, {"text": " uses now prohibited by publishers.", "start": 627.96, "stop": 629.64, "id": 141}, {"text": " The long-term costs fall on everyone. E-books cannot be preserved under these", "start": 630.46, "stop": 634.78, "id": 142}, {"text": " licenses, so e-books that are available today may not be available tomorrow.", "start": 634.78, "stop": 638.78, "id": 143}, {"text": " The only, if the only information that's available to us is what publishers", "start": 638.78, "stop": 643.42, "id": 144}, {"text": " decide to make available, and which we or our libraries can afford to pay for.", "start": 643.42, "stop": 647.66, "id": 145}, {"text": " That day, that information will necessarily be a small", "start": 647.84, "stop": 651.42, "id": 146}, {"text": " subset of all information published.", "start": 651.42, "stop": 653.22, "id": 147}, {"text": " Society will lose the ability to explore history, to know what was real or", "start": 654.24, "stop": 657.5, "id": 148}, {"text": " what was published at any given time.", "start": 657.5, "stop": 659.08, "id": 149}, {"text": " In summary, copyright was intended to further the creation and dissemination of", "start": 660.08, "stop": 664.64, "id": 150}, {"text": " information, but major publishers have used it to do the exact opposite,", "start": 664.64, "stop": 668.42, "id": 151}, {"text": " depressing information's preservation and spread, and the corruption of copyright", "start": 669.02, "stop": 672.42, "id": 152}, {"text": " should concern everyone. Thank you.", "start": 672.42, "stop": 674.28, "id": 153}, {"text": " Thank you.", "start": 675.4799999999999, "stop": 675.92, "id": 154}, {"text": " Amazing. I'm so excited to dive into this piece, but first I want to put it into", "start": 680.02, "stop": 684.12, "id": 155}, {"text": " conversation with Blake's piece and I'm going to let Blake say a few words about", "start": 684.12, "stop": 688.24, "id": 156}, {"text": " his work before we dive into the amazing synergies and overlap between the", "start": 688.24, "stop": 693.2, "id": 157}, {"text": " two. So Blake, over to you.", "start": 693.2, "stop": 694.82, "id": 158}, {"text": " Hey, thanks, Amanda, and thanks, Michelle, for the wonderful presentation and I", "start": 695.8599999999999, "stop": 700.42, "id": 159}, {"text": " hope folks will check out Michelle's paper, which if you haven't seen Chris", "start": 700.42, "stop": 704.28, "id": 160}, {"text": " has linked in the chat.", "start": 704.28, "stop": 705.98, "id": 161}, {"text": " Also, just wanted to say thanks to everybody at the archive and Library Futures", "start": 706.58, "stop": 710.5, "id": 162}, {"text": " for putting this together. And I should offer a quick disclaimer up front, which", "start": 710.5, "stop": 714.24, "id": 163}, {"text": " is that I'm speaking only for myself and not for any of my clients or my clinic.", "start": 714.24, "stop": 719.18, "id": 164}, {"text": " So, this paper is a little bit more specific than the topic", "start": 719.18, "stop": 725.64, "id": 165}, {"text": " that Michelle brought up and it's diving in on this specific intersection of", "start": 725.64, "stop": 731.04, "id": 166}, {"text": " disability and accessibility and copyright.", "start": 731.04, "stop": 733.64, "id": 167}, {"text": " And the goal I have with this paper is to better articulate the role that", "start": 733.64, "stop": 737.94, "id": 168}, {"text": " copyright law plays in the accessibility of creative works and the prevailing", "start": 737.94, "stop": 743.8, "id": 169}, {"text": " narrative around this stuff is pretty copyright centric that copyright exceptions", "start": 743.8, "stop": 747.96, "id": 170}, {"text": " and limitations are really essential to ensuring the accessibility", "start": 747.96, "stop": 752.3, "id": 171}, {"text": " of creative works.", "start": 752.3, "stop": 753.8, "id": 172}, {"text": " And for anyone that's followed the Marrakesh Treaty, this is the sort of", "start": 753.8, "stop": 757.62, "id": 173}, {"text": " discourse around the Marrakesh Treaty, that by bringing into effect a series of", "start": 757.62, "stop": 764.18, "id": 174}, {"text": " national laws that include limitations and exceptions to transform books into", "start": 764.18, "stop": 770.0, "id": 175}, {"text": " braille and alternate format copies that we're going to end the so called book", "start": 770.0, "stop": 775.22, "id": 176}, {"text": " famine that exists for braille readers and for other folks who rely on different", "start": 775.22, "stop": 781.3, "id": 177}, {"text": " kinds of accessible formats to be made. And it centers the conversation around", "start": 781.3, "stop": 787.38, "id": 178}, {"text": " permission from rights holders and from publishers in particular.", "start": 787.38, "stop": 790.74, "id": 179}, {"text": " And I found is I've done a lot of work in this area that there's not a lot of", "start": 790.74, "stop": 795.92, "id": 180}, {"text": " focus on the threshold question of why does accessibility or what is copyright", "start": 795.92, "stop": 800.54, "id": 181}, {"text": " gets suffused into accessibility policy in the first place.", "start": 800.54, "stop": 804.32, "id": 182}, {"text": " And this is a common question when I talk with folks who are whose primary", "start": 804.9, "stop": 809.42, "id": 183}, {"text": " concern is with disability rights. Why are we talking about", "start": 809.42, "stop": 812.92, "id": 184}, {"text": " copyright? Why are we here?", "start": 812.92, "stop": 814.74, "id": 185}, {"text": " Because the real goal is about how we make books accessible and how we make the", "start": 814.74, "stop": 820.56, "id": 186}, {"text": " various social structures, whether that's education, our work, our culture, our", "start": 820.56, "stop": 825.28, "id": 187}, {"text": " entertainment or democracy or whatever else that books enable", "start": 825.28, "stop": 828.72, "id": 188}, {"text": " to make them accessible.", "start": 828.72, "stop": 830.58, "id": 189}, {"text": " Why aren't we talking about that? Why are we spending so much time talking about", "start": 830.92, "stop": 834.4, "id": 190}, {"text": " copyright? So in this paper, I did a historical review of two case studies, one", "start": 834.4, "stop": 839.62, "id": 191}, {"text": " diving into tactile printing or braille, sort of the most common version of that.", "start": 839.62, "stop": 844.58, "id": 192}, {"text": " And closed captioning of television programming and I'll just talk about the", "start": 844.58, "stop": 848.62, "id": 193}, {"text": " braille example for a second, happy to get into the other one in the Q&A.", "start": 848.62, "stop": 853.96, "id": 194}, {"text": " And so the findings that I did as I went into the history of braille and", "start": 854.54, "stop": 861.4, "id": 195}, {"text": " tactile printing policy in this country about why copyright and accessibility", "start": 861.4, "stop": 866.4, "id": 196}, {"text": " got wrapped up with each other.", "start": 866.4, "stop": 868.18, "id": 197}, {"text": " I got to triple it, Amanda. So number one, we've got this non economic and it's", "start": 868.18, "stop": 875.18, "id": 198}, {"text": " not really even a moral rights driven insistence on the part of publishers, not", "start": 875.18, "stop": 880.0, "id": 199}, {"text": " authors but publishers, to be asked permission, even when they've got", "start": 880.0, "stop": 884.36, "id": 200}, {"text": " no interest in withholding it.", "start": 884.36, "stop": 885.9, "id": 201}, {"text": " So you see this real interest in being asked permission. That's number one.", "start": 885.9, "stop": 890.0, "id": 202}, {"text": " Number two, I think you see proximity of the creation of braille books", "start": 890.62, "stop": 896.68, "id": 203}, {"text": " to the growth of copyright maximalism and permission culture and policy making", "start": 896.68, "stop": 902.66, "id": 204}, {"text": " institutions and the Library of Congress and the Copyright Office in particular.", "start": 902.66, "stop": 907.54, "id": 205}, {"text": " So it turns out that the National Library Service for the Blind ends up", "start": 907.54, "stop": 914.46, "id": 206}, {"text": " being operated by the Library of Congress and comes into ascendancy right around", "start": 914.46, "stop": 918.72, "id": 207}, {"text": " the same time that the Library of Congress plays, starts to play a more pivotal", "start": 918.72, "stop": 923.28, "id": 208}, {"text": " role in copyright policy because of its housing of the Copyright Office.", "start": 923.28, "stop": 928.08, "id": 209}, {"text": " So proximity to institutions, number two. And then the third one is the focus of", "start": 928.08, "stop": 934.22, "id": 210}, {"text": " the disability rights movement through the 1970s through the early 1990s", "start": 934.22, "stop": 938.86, "id": 211}, {"text": " culminating with the Americans with Disabilities Act on places of public", "start": 938.86, "stop": 942.82, "id": 212}, {"text": " accommodation and government services.", "start": 942.82, "stop": 944.76, "id": 213}, {"text": " So schools, libraries and other intermediaries for copyrighted works and not", "start": 944.76, "stop": 950.6, "id": 214}, {"text": " copyright holders themselves as the locus for where do we do accessibility.", "start": 950.6, "stop": 954.76, "id": 215}, {"text": " We don't expect publishers to do it. We expect libraries to do it. We expect", "start": 955.28, "stop": 959.04, "id": 216}, {"text": " schools to do it. We expect other third parties to do it. And so I think those", "start": 959.04, "stop": 963.36, "id": 217}, {"text": " three factors, the sort of the insistence on permission, the proximity to", "start": 963.36, "stop": 969.7, "id": 218}, {"text": " policy making institutions that really care about copyright and this focus on", "start": 969.7, "stop": 974.14, "id": 219}, {"text": " third party accessibility are what brings us there.", "start": 974.14, "stop": 977.86, "id": 220}, {"text": " So basically, we see this all really materialized in the legislative hearings for", "start": 979.22, "stop": 986.12, "id": 221}, {"text": " the 1976 Copyright Act. We see these demands, publisher demands for permission.", "start": 986.12, "stop": 990.62, "id": 222}, {"text": " And we actually get this codified in Section 710 of the Copyright Act, which is", "start": 990.62, "stop": 995.18, "id": 223}, {"text": " the basically the Copyright Office gets to create standard forms for publishers", "start": 995.18, "stop": 1000.56, "id": 224}, {"text": " to grant the office with permission.", "start": 1000.56, "stop": 1002.72, "id": 225}, {"text": " And then we see a couple of decades of that not really working of delays in", "start": 1003.24, "stop": 1007.54, "id": 226}, {"text": " braille books being created by the National Library Service.", "start": 1007.54, "stop": 1010.5, "id": 227}, {"text": " And so we finally make permission compulsory with the Chafee Amendment to the", "start": 1010.5, "stop": 1015.92, "id": 228}, {"text": " Copyright Act. And the Chafee Amendment is basically the first kind of specific", "start": 1015.92, "stop": 1020.46, "id": 229}, {"text": " exception limitation that we see in US law.", "start": 1020.46, "stop": 1023.52, "id": 230}, {"text": " And that forms the basis, at least in significant part of the Marrakesh Treaty", "start": 1023.66, "stop": 1028.02, "id": 231}, {"text": " and its subsequent updates in the United States.", "start": 1028.02, "stop": 1030.78, "id": 232}, {"text": " So in other words, we lay the Marrakesh Treaty, which is now coming into effect", "start": 1030.78, "stop": 1036.08, "id": 233}, {"text": " being implemented in countries all over the world. And what it really does is it", "start": 1036.08, "stop": 1040.96, "id": 234}, {"text": " brings us back to the status quo of kind of pre-Civil War", "start": 1040.96, "stop": 1046.14, "id": 235}, {"text": " policy around braille books.", "start": 1046.14, "stop": 1048.76, "id": 236}, {"text": " It sort of takes copyright out of a place that copyright wasn't at the beginning.", "start": 1048.76, "stop": 1054.64, "id": 237}, {"text": " And so I think we talk about it as groundbreaking and as bringing an end to the", "start": 1056.02, "stop": 1061.96, "id": 238}, {"text": " book, but it really sort of just brings us back to where we started.", "start": 1061.96, "stop": 1065.36, "id": 239}, {"text": " And we've got all of these other problems. How do we pay for book accessibility?", "start": 1065.52, "stop": 1069.94, "id": 240}, {"text": " How do we pay for the ecosystem around book accessibility? Who", "start": 1070.46, "stop": 1074.44, "id": 241}, {"text": " should internalize the cost?", "start": 1074.44, "stop": 1076.12, "id": 242}, {"text": " What is the role that publishers should play beyond being asked permission and", "start": 1076.12, "stop": 1081.18, "id": 243}, {"text": " giving permission? And what we see as a result is we still have enormous gaps in", "start": 1081.18, "stop": 1086.1, "id": 244}, {"text": " the availability of accessible books and the book famine remains very real.", "start": 1086.1, "stop": 1091.18, "id": 245}, {"text": " And I'll just say, and I'll wind this up, that we see the opposite with", "start": 1091.18, "stop": 1096.56, "id": 246}, {"text": " captioning, which happens in another institution, the Federal Communications", "start": 1096.56, "stop": 1100.44, "id": 247}, {"text": " Commission, that's far away from policy that bypasses third parties and goes to", "start": 1100.44, "stop": 1105.44, "id": 248}, {"text": " the industry directly for accessibility obligations.", "start": 1105.44, "stop": 1108.16, "id": 249}, {"text": " And we see pretty widely different results. So I'll just wind up and say, you", "start": 1108.16, "stop": 1114.46, "id": 250}, {"text": " know, we focus on copyright limitations and exceptions as this necessary legacy", "start": 1114.46, "stop": 1119.9, "id": 251}, {"text": " of centralizing accessibility obligations with intermediaries.", "start": 1119.9, "stop": 1124.16, "id": 252}, {"text": " But negotiating permission shouldn't be our only focus. It's really cost free to", "start": 1124.16, "stop": 1129.9, "id": 253}, {"text": " industrial rights holders to give permission and that permission doesn't solve", "start": 1129.9, "stop": 1134.16, "id": 254}, {"text": " the broader economic barriers to making works accessible.", "start": 1134.16, "stop": 1137.8, "id": 255}, {"text": " And more broadly, I think it underscores that the copyright system is not always", "start": 1138.64, "stop": 1142.48, "id": 256}, {"text": " really fit for solving access as a public good, as Michelle laid out at the", "start": 1142.48, "stop": 1147.36, "id": 257}, {"text": " beginning. We had pretty grand visions for what copyright would do as this", "start": 1147.36, "stop": 1151.12, "id": 258}, {"text": " engine of democracy.", "start": 1151.12, "stop": 1152.8, "id": 259}, {"text": " And I think it fails at that purpose when we center copyright and make copyright", "start": 1152.8, "stop": 1159.22, "id": 260}, {"text": " the only lens through which we solve these problems. And so I urge in the paper,", "start": 1159.22, "stop": 1163.9, "id": 261}, {"text": " de-centering copyright in our policymaking approaches, and think about copyright", "start": 1164.38, "stop": 1169.32, "id": 262}, {"text": " holders as potentially being responsible directly for providing public goods.", "start": 1169.32, "stop": 1175.38, "id": 263}, {"text": " All right, I think I've gone too long. So Amanda,", "start": 1175.38, "stop": 1177.5, "id": 264}, {"text": " I'll stop there and hand it back to you.", "start": 1177.62, "stop": 1179.26, "id": 265}, {"text": " You didn't go too long at all. That was that was perfect.", "start": 1182.42, "stop": 1184.7, "id": 266}, {"text": " Let me later. Okay, so let's get both of y'all in the conversation. We're going", "start": 1186.24, "stop": 1192.78, "id": 267}, {"text": " to do some Wild West stuff so you can both chime in whenever.", "start": 1192.78, "stop": 1195.94, "id": 268}, {"text": " Okay, so before so you both kind of took us on a like a little copyright journey", "start": 1196.62, "stop": 1201.7, "id": 269}, {"text": " from the purpose of copyright, which you both defined differently to where we are", "start": 1201.7, "stop": 1206.36, "id": 270}, {"text": " today and I'm going to take us even beyond that to copyright's potential future.", "start": 1206.36, "stop": 1209.58, "id": 271}, {"text": " But I want to go back to the beginning and dive into copyright's kind of heated", "start": 1209.8, "stop": 1214.02, "id": 272}, {"text": " historical context, which you both address", "start": 1214.02, "stop": 1216.5, "id": 273}, {"text": " in your papers from different perspectives.", "start": 1216.5, "stop": 1218.08, "id": 274}, {"text": " So we know how the Constitution describes the purpose of copyright. Michelle, you", "start": 1218.08, "stop": 1223.8, "id": 275}, {"text": " defined it as the creation and dissemination of information and Blake,", "start": 1223.8, "stop": 1226.78, "id": 276}, {"text": " you framed it more as accessibility.", "start": 1227.12, "stop": 1228.66, "id": 277}, {"text": " So how have these purposes historically informed copyright policy and if you want", "start": 1229.36, "stop": 1234.0, "id": 278}, {"text": " to get really specific and concrete, what is a key example of a policy or case", "start": 1234.0, "stop": 1238.28, "id": 279}, {"text": " law decision that promotes the purposes that y'all those to envision.", "start": 1238.28, "stop": 1241.4, "id": 280}, {"text": " I actually think we might both name I could be wrong about this like that I think", "start": 1245.5, "stop": 1249.44, "id": 281}, {"text": " about happy trust case is actually a good illustration of what I'm trying", "start": 1249.44, "stop": 1255.52, "id": 282}, {"text": " to balance all the interesting copyright.", "start": 1255.52, "stop": 1257.08, "id": 283}, {"text": " Yeah, yeah, jump in. I want you to both say why if you both agree with that.", "start": 1258.8999999999999, "stop": 1262.44, "id": 284}, {"text": " Yeah, I completely agree. So I mean, I think back to, you know, the progress", "start": 1263.24, "stop": 1268.4, "id": 285}, {"text": " clause and I actually don't think there's that much differentiation between what", "start": 1268.4, "stop": 1273.18, "id": 286}, {"text": " Michelle and I are saying is the as the sort of framing of the progress clause,", "start": 1273.18, "stop": 1276.58, "id": 287}, {"text": " whether that's about to be the interest of the First Amendment and in", "start": 1276.7, "stop": 1295.32, "id": 288}, {"text": " facilitating that that sort of discussion around democracy, that sort ofdaughter", "start": 1295.32, "stop": 1300.78, "id": 289}, {"text": " that we expect in the United States, and I think the reason Michelle I want to", "start": 1300.78, "stop": 1305.6, "id": 290}, {"text": " take words out of your mouth but I imagine the reason and we both go to", "start": 1305.6, "stop": 1308.66, "id": 291}, {"text": " HathiTrust is, you know, fair use is where a lot of the rubber meets", "start": 1308.66, "stop": 1313.96, "id": 292}, {"text": " the road on this stuff.", "start": 1313.96, "stop": 1315.6, "id": 293}, {"text": " And HathiTrust is a case that really underscores that and it underscores it in", "start": 1316.26, "stop": 1320.1, "id": 294}, {"text": " a lot of different ways, right?", "start": 1320.1, "stop": 1321.64, "id": 295}, {"text": " And Michelle, I'll defer to you to talk to the library piece of it, but the", "start": 1321.76, "stop": 1324.96, "id": 296}, {"text": " accessibility piece of it is basically saying, hey, we recognize through the", "start": 1324.96, "stop": 1331.26, "id": 297}, {"text": " creation of the, or the enactment of the Americans with Disabilities Act and", "start": 1331.26, "stop": 1335.02, "id": 298}, {"text": " various other disability laws that making works accessible is consonant with fair", "start": 1335.02, "stop": 1341.56, "id": 299}, {"text": " use and consonant as, you know, in an indirect way with the First Amendment.", "start": 1341.56, "stop": 1346.58, "id": 300}, {"text": " And so that sort of gets us straight back to that constitutional bedrock.", "start": 1346.82, "stop": 1350.94, "id": 301}, {"text": " And that was one of the first times we've seen a court really specifically", "start": 1351.36, "stop": 1354.66, "id": 302}, {"text": " recognize and say, hey, you know, we've got directives from other areas of", "start": 1354.66, "stop": 1359.7, "id": 303}, {"text": " policy, not just copyright, that sort of lead us to those results.", "start": 1359.7, "stop": 1363.14, "id": 304}, {"text": " So that's sort of my rationalization of the whole thing.", "start": 1363.24, "stop": 1365.68, "id": 305}, {"text": " Michelle, I don't know what you think.", "start": 1365.68, "stop": 1366.9, "id": 306}, {"text": " Yeah, and I agree entirely with Lake that I don't think that", "start": 1367.94, "stop": 1370.9, "id": 307}, {"text": " our approaches are really all that different.", "start": 1370.9, "stop": 1372.48, "id": 308}, {"text": " The only way that it can feed democracy is if the information is actually", "start": 1373.34, "stop": 1376.5, "id": 309}, {"text": " accessible to everyone, not just to a subset of the", "start": 1376.5, "stop": 1379.06, "id": 310}, {"text": " population that has to be accessible to everyone.", "start": 1379.06, "stop": 1380.7, "id": 311}, {"text": " So I do agree with that general principle.", "start": 1380.78, "stop": 1382.18, "id": 312}, {"text": " In terms of HathiTrust, I actually think it doesn't go far enough, but the reason", "start": 1383.1, "stop": 1386.42, "id": 313}, {"text": " why I would name it is because it does recognize that fair use recognizes, again,", "start": 1386.42, "stop": 1390.84, "id": 314}, {"text": " I should say that fair use allows for uses that the authors might or copyright", "start": 1391.04, "stop": 1395.36, "id": 315}, {"text": " owners might want to stop, that there are some uses that are so publicly", "start": 1395.36, "stop": 1399.28, "id": 316}, {"text": " beneficial that it warrants taking even the entirety of the work, even making", "start": 1399.28, "stop": 1405.46, "id": 317}, {"text": " multiple copies of the work, even making works freely available to people.", "start": 1405.46, "stop": 1409.26, "id": 318}, {"text": " That can go to the very, very extreme of doing that without paying an", "start": 1409.5, "stop": 1413.96, "id": 319}, {"text": " author additional fees.", "start": 1413.96, "stop": 1415.78, "id": 320}, {"text": " And fair use can actually accommodate that, which I think", "start": 1416.64, "stop": 1419.42, "id": 321}, {"text": " is what copyright was about.", "start": 1419.42, "stop": 1421.0, "id": 322}, {"text": " Yeah, and for the folks following along who may not be super familiar with the", "start": 1422.46, "stop": 1426.02, "id": 323}, {"text": " HathiTrust decision, this was about the digitization of books by a library that", "start": 1426.02, "stop": 1430.56, "id": 324}, {"text": " served certified disabled patrons so that they could have access to books that", "start": 1430.56, "stop": 1435.24, "id": 325}, {"text": " might not otherwise be made available by publishers.", "start": 1435.24, "stop": 1437.3, "id": 326}, {"text": " And there was litigation challenging this digitization that eventually was", "start": 1437.94, "stop": 1442.54, "id": 327}, {"text": " vindicated under the fair use doctrine, saying that even though this was not", "start": 1442.54, "stop": 1447.72, "id": 328}, {"text": " totally different in form, it was serving a really important purpose that was", "start": 1447.72, "stop": 1451.68, "id": 329}, {"text": " fundamentally different than how these books were made to go out into the world.", "start": 1451.68, "stop": 1455.02, "id": 330}, {"text": " And I think what's so interesting is that this is literally at the intersection", "start": 1455.6, "stop": 1458.98, "id": 331}, {"text": " of your two papers focus, right?", "start": 1458.98, "stop": 1460.76, "id": 332}, {"text": " Libraries and disability rights, and this sits right directly in the middle, but", "start": 1461.34, "stop": 1465.56, "id": 333}, {"text": " also connects exactly what you were saying, right?", "start": 1465.56, "stop": 1468.06, "id": 334}, {"text": " The dissemination, creation and dissemination, accessibility, they're actually", "start": 1469.02, "stop": 1472.52, "id": 335}, {"text": " both part of the broader principle of having an informed democracy, which is kind", "start": 1472.52, "stop": 1476.88, "id": 336}, {"text": " of the ultimate goal of copyright.", "start": 1476.88, "stop": 1479.2, "id": 337}, {"text": " But we're moving further and further away from that goal, and you both talk about", "start": 1479.92, "stop": 1483.38, "id": 338}, {"text": " that in your papers in different ways.", "start": 1483.38, "stop": 1485.0, "id": 339}, {"text": " So could you each pinpoint a place where copyright began to become unmoored from", "start": 1485.38, "stop": 1489.6, "id": 340}, {"text": " the purposes we've identified?", "start": 1489.6, "stop": 1491.12, "id": 341}, {"text": " In other words, how did copyright become a barrier to accessing information", "start": 1491.76, "stop": 1495.24, "id": 342}, {"text": " rather than a means of incentivizing it?", "start": 1495.24, "stop": 1497.42, "id": 343}, {"text": " Amanda, I wonder if I could take just a threshold question before we get to", "start": 1499.32, "stop": 1503.68, "id": 344}, {"text": " copyright as a barrier and just say- You can, you are entitled to do so.", "start": 1503.68, "stop": 1507.94, "id": 345}, {"text": " Thank you.", "start": 1508.3, "stop": 1508.98, "id": 346}, {"text": " I'm in a very permissioned culture mindset here.", "start": 1509.48, "stop": 1512.36, "id": 347}, {"text": " I guess the question that I have is, when we look at the progress clause and we", "start": 1513.24, "stop": 1519.08, "id": 348}, {"text": " look at, so we talked a lot about fair use, but we look at the progress clause,", "start": 1519.08, "stop": 1523.0, "id": 349}, {"text": " which says we've got this aim that we wanna serve.", "start": 1523.12, "stop": 1525.82, "id": 350}, {"text": " And I think Michelle articulated that aim really powerfully in her paper.", "start": 1525.9, "stop": 1530.68, "id": 351}, {"text": " We have never successfully used the progress clause or related constitutional", "start": 1531.52, "stop": 1537.28, "id": 352}, {"text": " doctrines to examine whether copyright is really", "start": 1537.28, "stop": 1540.38, "id": 353}, {"text": " succeeding at that purpose, right?", "start": 1540.38, "stop": 1542.54, "id": 354}, {"text": " We have sort of looked to fair use as a way out of the barriers, but we've never", "start": 1542.64, "stop": 1547.54, "id": 355}, {"text": " looked at, at least not with any success at the progress clauses, as a check to", "start": 1547.54, "stop": 1552.6, "id": 356}, {"text": " see, is Congress achieving what it set out to do in", "start": 1552.6, "stop": 1556.98, "id": 357}, {"text": " creating the copyright system, right?", "start": 1556.98, "stop": 1558.76, "id": 358}, {"text": " And in other words, and the way that I would look at it, this specific problem I", "start": 1558.76, "stop": 1562.14, "id": 359}, {"text": " would look at it is, I would say, is the copyright system resulting in books", "start": 1562.14, "stop": 1566.86, "id": 360}, {"text": " being distributed in accessible formats?", "start": 1566.86, "stop": 1569.54, "id": 361}, {"text": " And maybe beyond that, is the copyright system working for creators", "start": 1569.84, "stop": 1573.4, "id": 362}, {"text": " with disabilities as well?", "start": 1573.4, "stop": 1575.0, "id": 363}, {"text": " So I think before we even get to barriers, we have this threshold failure, which", "start": 1576.5, "stop": 1581.44, "id": 364}, {"text": " is that the Supreme Court has largely looked at the Copyright Act and said,", "start": 1581.44, "stop": 1586.58, "id": 365}, {"text": " whatever Congress sort of thinks on that is fine.", "start": 1586.58, "stop": 1590.0, "id": 366}, {"text": " We're not going to exercise a heavy hand in terms of scrutinizing how the", "start": 1590.08, "stop": 1595.02, "id": 367}, {"text": " Copyright Act actually works.", "start": 1595.02, "stop": 1596.94, "id": 368}, {"text": " We're going to leave fair use as the safety valve in a couple of other things,", "start": 1597.2, "stop": 1601.02, "id": 369}, {"text": " and we'll sort of look at it from there.", "start": 1601.12, "stop": 1603.18, "id": 370}, {"text": " I don't think Congress has done a particularly good job.", "start": 1603.48, "stop": 1606.98, "id": 371}, {"text": " And I think in the research I was doing on the 76 Act when it was passed here in", "start": 1607.16, "stop": 1611.48, "id": 372}, {"text": " looking at accessibility, there was very little questioning of,", "start": 1611.48, "stop": 1615.36, "id": 373}, {"text": " how is this actually working?", "start": 1615.36, "stop": 1617.34, "id": 374}, {"text": " All the questioning was really about, is this okay with the publishers, right?", "start": 1617.44, "stop": 1621.96, "id": 375}, {"text": " Is this, can we craft this in a way that makes the publishers happy?", "start": 1622.12, "stop": 1627.72, "id": 376}, {"text": " And so I think this broader array of social concerns about the creation of", "start": 1628.0, "stop": 1633.0, "id": 377}, {"text": " copyrighted works never really gets hashed out in the", "start": 1633.0, "stop": 1636.02, "id": 378}, {"text": " examination of the Copyright Act.", "start": 1636.02, "stop": 1637.76, "id": 379}, {"text": " We're only dealing with it after the fact with safety valves like", "start": 1637.9, "stop": 1640.58, "id": 380}, {"text": " fair use, which is a real problem.", "start": 1640.58, "stop": 1642.14, "id": 381}, {"text": " I would agree 100% of the way.", "start": 1644.34, "stop": 1646.88, "id": 382}, {"text": " I mean, I think if you look back at all the major legislation, 1909, 1976, and", "start": 1647.18, "stop": 1652.4, "id": 383}, {"text": " take a look at the testimony, it has been weighted towards the publishers who", "start": 1652.4, "stop": 1656.46, "id": 384}, {"text": " technically were not one of the beneficiaries of the Copyright Clause.", "start": 1656.46, "stop": 1659.94, "id": 385}, {"text": " So it's actually pretty curious to me how much of a role they play.", "start": 1660.64, "stop": 1663.28, "id": 386}, {"text": " And obviously with the money that's being sent to mobbing right now, that", "start": 1663.38, "stop": 1667.1, "id": 387}, {"text": " extends that instance even further.", "start": 1667.1, "stop": 1668.96, "id": 388}, {"text": " But if I had to draw a line in terms of how the [...] used, in terms of where I", "start": 1670.12, "stop": 1672.82, "id": 389}, {"text": " think it got significantly worse.", "start": 1672.82, "stop": 1674.62, "id": 390}, {"text": " I agree 100% was like that it never met the promise.", "start": 1675.32, "stop": 1678.34, "id": 391}, {"text": " It never did exactly what it was supposed to do.", "start": 1678.78, "stop": 1681.26, "id": 392}, {"text": " And Congress has not been particularly vigilant about trying to make it, to meet,", "start": 1682.08, "stop": 1687.0, "id": 393}, {"text": " be better, a better fit for those purposes.", "start": 1687.12, "stop": 1689.16, "id": 394}, {"text": " I would say two things probably.", "start": 1690.46, "stop": 1693.34, "id": 395}, {"text": " One is the Copyright Extension Act, when the Supreme Court essentially says", "start": 1693.34, "stop": 1699.84, "id": 396}, {"text": " Congress can expand copyright for as long as it was, as long as it's not forever,", "start": 1699.84, "stop": 1703.42, "id": 397}, {"text": " and technology.", "start": 1703.98, "stop": 1705.48, "id": 398}, {"text": " And the reason why I would name technology is because it allowed publishers to", "start": 1706.42, "stop": 1710.16, "id": 399}, {"text": " essentially put a bunch of prior restraints on copyright, even before we get to", "start": 1710.16, "stop": 1715.52, "id": 400}, {"text": " the copyright issues, they're able to control the use of the copyright work.", "start": 1715.52, "stop": 1718.7, "id": 401}, {"text": " And as an example, it is a licensing piece.", "start": 1719.32, "stop": 1721.76, "id": 402}, {"text": " So there are a lot of actions that are legitimate, that are considered either", "start": 1721.76, "stop": 1725.96, "id": 403}, {"text": " statutorily legitimate, like resale, or fair", "start": 1725.96, "stop": 1731.48, "id": 404}, {"text": " use, like the recording and TV program.", "start": 1731.48, "stop": 1733.12, "id": 405}, {"text": " That publishers can just stop users from doing two license terms.", "start": 1733.52, "stop": 1736.88, "id": 406}, {"text": " They stop you by contract before you even get to the copyright issues.", "start": 1737.04, "stop": 1741.3, "id": 407}, {"text": " But they use those licenses, or they argue that they're using", "start": 1741.86, "stop": 1745.36, "id": 408}, {"text": " licenses to protect copyright.", "start": 1745.36, "stop": 1746.9, "id": 409}, {"text": " So in that way, technology, I think, ended up having a particularly negative", "start": 1747.82, "stop": 1752.02, "id": 410}, {"text": " effect, when I actually think it could have been extraordinarily empowering,", "start": 1752.02, "stop": 1755.82, "id": 411}, {"text": " especially in the case of disabilities.", "start": 1756.16, "stop": 1758.86, "id": 412}, {"text": " I mean, if you take a look at Amazon, Amazon had text-to-speech technology fairly", "start": 1759.68, "stop": 1765.38, "id": 413}, {"text": " early on for its books, and the publishers objected to that.", "start": 1765.38, "stop": 1768.64, "id": 414}, {"text": " Despite the fact that people who wanted to use that feature had purchased that", "start": 1769.02, "stop": 1772.42, "id": 415}, {"text": " book, they had already paid the copyright order.", "start": 1772.42, "stop": 1774.3, "id": 416}, {"text": " So technology could have been used to actually create a more equal world.", "start": 1774.82, "stop": 1778.52, "id": 417}, {"text": " But we have somehow allowed publishers to step in and suppress equality instead.", "start": 1779.04, "stop": 1784.36, "id": 418}, {"text": " That actually brings me to one of the shared themes of your two papers, even", "start": 1786.02, "stop": 1789.56, "id": 419}, {"text": " though you come at it from different directions, which is the congressional", "start": 1789.56, "stop": 1791.94, "id": 420}, {"text": " adoption of policies that continue to privilege copyright owners' interests,", "start": 1791.94, "stop": 1795.86, "id": 421}, {"text": " including piracy concerns, which you both talk about in your", "start": 1796.12, "stop": 1798.36, "id": 422}, {"text": " papers, over the public's interest.", "start": 1798.36, "stop": 1800.38, "id": 423}, {"text": " So if you had to say that there was a policy that most restricted the public", "start": 1800.9, "stop": 1806.6, "id": 424}, {"text": " access to knowledge, would either of you address the Digital Millennium Copyright", "start": 1806.6, "stop": 1810.14, "id": 425}, {"text": " Act as a restriction on that, or is there another way to think about", "start": 1810.14, "stop": 1813.46, "id": 426}, {"text": " the DMCA and its intervention?", "start": 1813.46, "stop": 1815.04, "id": 427}, {"text": " Because it is, as Michelle alluded to, kind of what got in the way of", "start": 1815.5, "stop": 1819.74, "id": 428}, {"text": " technology's promise in some ways.", "start": 1819.74, "stop": 1821.4, "id": 429}, {"text": " And I'm also biased because I'm wearing my Run DMCA sweater, so I want to talk", "start": 1823.04, "stop": 1826.24, "id": 430}, {"text": " about the DMCA a little bit.", "start": 1826.24, "stop": 1827.82, "id": 431}, {"text": " Oh, you want to take this one first?", "start": 1829.08, "stop": 1830.36, "id": 432}, {"text": " So the DMCA is tremendously problematic, or at least the provisions on", "start": 1832.76, "stop": 1836.58, "id": 433}, {"text": " circumvention or anti-circumvention are particularly problematic, primarily", "start": 1836.58, "stop": 1840.68, "id": 434}, {"text": " because they do stop all sorts of fair uses.", "start": 1840.68, "stop": 1843.7, "id": 435}, {"text": " I think that it was a way to accomplish the goal or what the publishers wanted to", "start": 1847.3600000000001, "stop": 1851.9, "id": 436}, {"text": " accomplish or what Congress wanted to accomplish without necessarily making the", "start": 1851.9, "stop": 1857.04, "id": 437}, {"text": " prohibition against circumvention as broad as it was.", "start": 1857.04, "stop": 1860.16, "id": 438}, {"text": " For example, they could have built in a fair use exception, that any type of fair", "start": 1860.34, "stop": 1864.18, "id": 439}, {"text": " use you could actually circumvent as long as you weren't infringing on copyright.", "start": 1864.18, "stop": 1868.48, "id": 440}, {"text": " But they chose not to do that.", "start": 1868.96, "stop": 1870.22, "id": 441}, {"text": " And that did, I think, stand in the way of a lot of fair uses.", "start": 1870.46, "stop": 1874.2, "id": 442}, {"text": " Yeah, I mean, as a longstanding veteran of the Section 1201 exemption", "start": 1876.24, "stop": 1882.76, "id": 443}, {"text": " process, I will say, there's no shortage of examples", "start": 1882.76, "stop": 1889.1, "id": 444}, {"text": " of the DMCA getting in the way by sort of standing as a backstop for", "start": 1889.1, "stop": 1896.02, "id": 445}, {"text": " digital locks that prevent accessibility, that prevent format shifting, that", "start": 1896.02, "stop": 1901.96, "id": 446}, {"text": " prevent creativity and remix, that prevent security research and repair.", "start": 1901.96, "stop": 1908.7, "id": 447}, {"text": " And the list goes on of the sort of public goods and very important public", "start": 1909.26, "stop": 1916.2, "id": 448}, {"text": " goods that can't as a matter of law be produced under the DMCA without", "start": 1916.2, "stop": 1923.06, "id": 449}, {"text": " wrangling with this incredibly complex process that the", "start": 1923.06, "stop": 1926.04, "id": 450}, {"text": " Copyright Office administers.", "start": 1926.04, "stop": 1927.7, "id": 451}, {"text": " On the other hand, I also see that in a lot of those cases, and I think", "start": 1928.62, "stop": 1933.66, "id": 452}, {"text": " accessibility is a good one, that we're fighting in those to get to a not great", "start": 1933.66, "stop": 1940.02, "id": 453}, {"text": " result, which is, for example, thinking about ebook accessibility, we're fighting", "start": 1940.02, "stop": 1946.9, "id": 454}, {"text": " for the ability for a library or for a person with a disability to be able to", "start": 1946.9, "stop": 1953.06, "id": 455}, {"text": " strip off digital rights management so that they can make a book accessible.", "start": 1953.06, "stop": 1957.12, "id": 456}, {"text": " That's solving, in my mind, that's solving like a", "start": 1958.2399999999998, "stop": 1962.5, "id": 457}, {"text": " very small part of that problem.", "start": 1962.5, "stop": 1964.04, "id": 458}, {"text": " And it's a really important part of the problem.", "start": 1964.04, "stop": 1965.62, "id": 459}, {"text": " It's a threshold part of the problem, but it doesn't get us", "start": 1965.74, "stop": 1968.7, "id": 460}, {"text": " to an accessible book, right?", "start": 1968.7, "stop": 1970.26, "id": 461}, {"text": " It doesn't guarantee that the resources are gonna be there on the other side to", "start": 1970.44, "stop": 1976.82, "id": 462}, {"text": " make a library's whole collection accessible or that they're not still gonna", "start": 1976.82, "stop": 1982.86, "id": 463}, {"text": " have to go jump through hoops.", "start": 1982.86, "stop": 1984.46, "id": 464}, {"text": " And seeing the demonstrations of how some of that works, when you compare what", "start": 1984.7, "stop": 1988.86, "id": 465}, {"text": " it's like if you are just trying to buy a book on the Kindle store, buy a book", "start": 1988.86, "stop": 1993.16, "id": 466}, {"text": " from Apple Books or whatever, or just to go get a book from a library, and then", "start": 1993.16, "stop": 1999.78, "id": 467}, {"text": " looking through the process that somebody with a disability has to go through,", "start": 1999.78, "stop": 2003.18, "id": 468}, {"text": " all those extra steps that it takes, and copyright is one of them, and it's an", "start": 2003.34, "stop": 2008.86, "id": 469}, {"text": " important one, but there's all these additional steps.", "start": 2008.86, "stop": 2011.46, "id": 470}, {"text": " And I think that resonates with a lot of the other areas that", "start": 2011.64, "stop": 2014.7, "id": 471}, {"text": " we're talking about here, right?", "start": 2014.7, "stop": 2016.24, "id": 472}, {"text": " I think a lot of the things that we frame as copyright problems are also", "start": 2016.62, "stop": 2022.52, "id": 473}, {"text": " consumer protection problems.", "start": 2022.52, "stop": 2024.2, "id": 474}, {"text": " They are, this is, Michelle, you talked a lot about terms of service, right?", "start": 2024.64, "stop": 2030.02, "id": 475}, {"text": " This is just people being sold things that they don't understand how they're", "start": 2030.48, "stop": 2034.94, "id": 476}, {"text": " gonna work and what they're gonna be allowed to do with it until after the fact,", "start": 2034.94, "stop": 2038.76, "id": 477}, {"text": " until after they press buy on it, and then suddenly they can't do something that", "start": 2038.94, "stop": 2044.14, "id": 478}, {"text": " they're used to, or it gets taken away, it gets taken out of their library, the", "start": 2044.14, "stop": 2047.84, "id": 479}, {"text": " license gets revoked.", "start": 2047.84, "stop": 2049.5, "id": 480}, {"text": " And I think if you talk to most people, they don't think, well, gosh, I ought to", "start": 2050.04, "stop": 2053.84, "id": 481}, {"text": " be able to go in there and hack my way out of it.", "start": 2053.84, "stop": 2056.46, "id": 482}, {"text": " I think the first thing that they think about is, gee, I got ripped off.", "start": 2056.58, "stop": 2059.88, "id": 483}, {"text": " Like that really stinks, and I would like my money", "start": 2060.32, "stop": 2062.76, "id": 484}, {"text": " back, or I would like my book back.", "start": 2062.76, "stop": 2064.54, "id": 485}, {"text": " Like, can't somebody come in and fix it?", "start": 2064.54, "stop": 2067.48, "id": 486}, {"text": " So copyright gives us this kind of libertarian way, or when we think about", "start": 2068.06, "stop": 2071.72, "id": 487}, {"text": " limitations and exceptions, gives us this libertarian", "start": 2071.72, "stop": 2074.04, "id": 488}, {"text": " way of solving these problems.", "start": 2074.04, "stop": 2075.62, "id": 489}, {"text": " And that's often like the best we've got, right?", "start": 2076.06, "stop": 2078.18, "id": 490}, {"text": " But I also think there's this additional step, which is like, we deserve better.", "start": 2078.46, "stop": 2083.72, "id": 491}, {"text": " Like these systems should work better than this.", "start": 2084.02, "stop": 2085.86, "id": 492}, {"text": " Like books should be born accessible.", "start": 2086.06, "stop": 2087.52, "id": 493}, {"text": " Like, you know, like work should be licensed on friendly terms so that you can go", "start": 2088.36, "stop": 2093.72, "id": 494}, {"text": " do the stuff with your books that you used to do with your books.", "start": 2093.72, "stop": 2096.42, "id": 495}, {"text": " Like, why can't we buy things that work that way?", "start": 2096.84, "stop": 2099.26, "id": 496}, {"text": " And I'm not sure copyright, either on the front end or on limitations and", "start": 2099.7, "stop": 2103.36, "id": 497}, {"text": " exceptions, has the answers to all of those questions.", "start": 2103.36, "stop": 2105.68, "id": 498}, {"text": " I don't think it has the answer to huge numbers of those questions.", "start": 2106.66, "stop": 2109.7, "id": 499}, {"text": " One of the ones Michelle brought up is contract law, which I think is very", "start": 2109.98, "stop": 2113.0, "id": 500}, {"text": " important in this shift away from ownership to licensing,", "start": 2113.0, "stop": 2115.42, "id": 501}, {"text": " especially in the digital context.", "start": 2115.44, "stop": 2117.04, "id": 502}, {"text": " But like, you've also brought up consumer protection law.", "start": 2117.54, "stop": 2120.52, "id": 503}, {"text": " Your paper talks about telecommunications law.", "start": 2120.52, "stop": 2122.84, "id": 504}, {"text": " What are some of the other, like this kind of brings us to from 1700 to the 90s", "start": 2123.44, "stop": 2127.92, "id": 505}, {"text": " when we were talking about the DMCA to the present, right?", "start": 2127.92, "stop": 2130.24, "id": 506}, {"text": " The problematic present of copyright existence.", "start": 2130.38, "stop": 2133.52, "id": 507}, {"text": " What are some of the other areas of law that are complicating the copyright", "start": 2134.06, "stop": 2137.36, "id": 508}, {"text": " question and maybe getting in the way of us being able to come to a place where", "start": 2137.36, "stop": 2141.74, "id": 509}, {"text": " works are more broadly accessible?", "start": 2141.74, "stop": 2143.66, "id": 510}, {"text": " I mean, a lot of the fall under the consumer protection,", "start": 2145.72, "stop": 2147.92, "id": 511}, {"text": " that's like mentioned, like privacy.", "start": 2148.12, "stop": 2149.62, "id": 512}, {"text": " Privacy is implicated in the use of all that.", "start": 2149.62, "stop": 2152.86, "id": 513}, {"text": " Like Amazon is tracking every single keystroke you're making on that Kindle.", "start": 2153.24, "stop": 2156.88, "id": 514}, {"text": " They know what you're doing, what you're reading, how long you spend on a book.", "start": 2157.44, "stop": 2160.34, "id": 515}, {"text": " So privacy rights are involved as our confidentiality", "start": 2160.52, "stop": 2163.42, "id": 516}, {"text": " and big data issues, I think.", "start": 2163.42, "stop": 2164.92, "id": 517}, {"text": " Yeah, and Michelle, totally cosigned privacy, cosigned contract law, obviously.", "start": 2166.36, "stop": 2171.52, "id": 518}, {"text": " I always think when we think about internet law, the original sins of internet", "start": 2171.86, "stop": 2174.96, "id": 519}, {"text": " law lie in the seven circuits cases around click wrap and shrink wrap contract,", "start": 2174.96, "stop": 2179.92, "id": 520}, {"text": " which allow the relationships between rights holders and users to basically be", "start": 2180.3, "stop": 2186.76, "id": 521}, {"text": " set in totally unfavorable to the user, totally friendly to the publisher terms.", "start": 2186.76, "stop": 2193.28, "id": 522}, {"text": " I think that factors into our modern conversation about antitrust", "start": 2193.64, "stop": 2196.4, "id": 523}, {"text": " law and competition, right?", "start": 2196.4, "stop": 2198.28, "id": 524}, {"text": " We see a lot of, in the same way that power gets exercised in the contract, it", "start": 2198.46, "stop": 2203.64, "id": 525}, {"text": " gets exercised by folks who have centralized power, our accumulated power", "start": 2203.64, "stop": 2208.24, "id": 526}, {"text": " through a lack of competition.", "start": 2208.24, "stop": 2209.84, "id": 527}, {"text": " Just real quick on telecommunications law, I actually point that out as an", "start": 2210.76, "stop": 2214.16, "id": 528}, {"text": " example of where, and I do this in the paper talking about closed captioning as", "start": 2214.16, "stop": 2218.08, "id": 529}, {"text": " kind of a countervailing story, of where it actually can go right, which is, the", "start": 2218.08, "stop": 2223.12, "id": 530}, {"text": " FCC in the 90s basically implements closed captioning regulations that require", "start": 2223.12, "stop": 2228.44, "id": 531}, {"text": " all television to be closed captioned with some exceptions and goes", "start": 2228.44, "stop": 2232.96, "id": 532}, {"text": " basically to the television industry.", "start": 2232.96, "stop": 2234.66, "id": 533}, {"text": " And so the broadcast cable satellite companies and the studios, like you", "start": 2234.84, "stop": 2238.96, "id": 534}, {"text": " have to do this, figure it out.", "start": 2238.96, "stop": 2240.68, "id": 535}, {"text": " Here's all the details.", "start": 2240.76, "stop": 2241.66, "id": 536}, {"text": " We're gonna sort of make you do it.", "start": 2241.82, "stop": 2243.62, "id": 537}, {"text": " And the funny thing about that one is, is actually copyright comes up, right?", "start": 2243.92, "stop": 2247.88, "id": 538}, {"text": " The rights holders actually stepped in or like, boy, I don't know, like, you", "start": 2247.98, "stop": 2252.44, "id": 539}, {"text": " know, this sort of interferes with, you", "start": 2252.44, "stop": 2254.3, "id": 540}, {"text": " know, some of them were rights holders themselves.", "start": 2254.3, "stop": 2255.92, "id": 541}, {"text": " This interferes with our autonomy.", "start": 2256.06, "stop": 2257.62, "id": 542}, {"text": " Some distributors stepped in and said, well, this is gonna cause, get us in", "start": 2258.2, "stop": 2261.76, "id": 543}, {"text": " trouble for violating other people's copyright.", "start": 2261.76, "stop": 2263.78, "id": 544}, {"text": " If we add captions to things, like copyright's the real problem.", "start": 2263.9, "stop": 2266.54, "id": 545}, {"text": " And the FCC, bless its heart, is not like really close to copyright law.", "start": 2267.1, "stop": 2272.0, "id": 546}, {"text": " And basically its response is like, well, we don't know about all this copyright", "start": 2272.46, "stop": 2275.9, "id": 547}, {"text": " law stuff, but we assume you guys are contracting around all this stuff anyway.", "start": 2275.9, "stop": 2279.6, "id": 548}, {"text": " So go figure it out.", "start": 2280.14, "stop": 2281.12, "id": 549}, {"text": " Like, we're not gonna like let you blow up this really important set of public", "start": 2281.32, "stop": 2285.56, "id": 550}, {"text": " goods that Congress has enshrined in the law by all of this,", "start": 2285.56, "stop": 2289.1, "id": 551}, {"text": " you know, this stuff about copyright.", "start": 2289.3, "stop": 2291.12, "id": 552}, {"text": " Like, go contract around it or fair use, whatever.", "start": 2291.28, "stop": 2293.9, "id": 553}, {"text": " Like, we don't care.", "start": 2294.22, "stop": 2294.88, "id": 554}, {"text": " And sort it out.", "start": 2294.88, "stop": 2296.46, "id": 555}, {"text": " And so I think that shows an example of where we can focus on what is the public", "start": 2296.82, "stop": 2302.58, "id": 556}, {"text": " good that we're actually trying to achieve here and how do we get there rather", "start": 2302.58, "stop": 2307.22, "id": 557}, {"text": " than focusing on the sort of means to get there as being centered in copyright.", "start": 2307.22, "stop": 2314.0, "id": 558}, {"text": " Because the problem with using copyright is, another second theme of both of your", "start": 2315.52, "stop": 2319.9, "id": 559}, {"text": " papers is that it was capitalism all along.", "start": 2319.9, "stop": 2322.42, "id": 560}, {"text": " Profits are driving a lot of this policymaking in a negative", "start": 2323.06, "stop": 2326.02, "id": 561}, {"text": " direction away from the public interest.", "start": 2326.02, "stop": 2327.78, "id": 562}, {"text": " So how have the profits of whether it's publishers or producers or other", "start": 2328.32, "stop": 2332.46, "id": 563}, {"text": " copyright owners, how have those driven policies and practices that", "start": 2332.46, "stop": 2336.28, "id": 564}, {"text": " don't serve the public interest?", "start": 2336.28, "stop": 2337.9, "id": 565}, {"text": " They either prevent it from being served or just don't advance it.", "start": 2338.06, "stop": 2341.68, "id": 566}, {"text": " Bell, you're on first now.", "start": 2345.36, "stop": 2346.98, "id": 567}, {"text": " Yeah, so I was just gonna [...]", "start": 2348.24, "stop": 2349.1, "id": 568}, {"text": " It's not all, speaking for books particularly, it gets more complicated when", "start": 2349.2, "stop": 2353.86, "id": 569}, {"text": " we're looking at music and movies and television.", "start": 2353.86, "stop": 2355.78, "id": 570}, {"text": " The thing for books, it is not all publishers.", "start": 2356.2, "stop": 2358.0, "id": 571}, {"text": " I mean, there are some publishers that do actually have models that", "start": 2358.54, "stop": 2361.24, "id": 572}, {"text": " work that are not driven by profit.", "start": 2361.24, "stop": 2362.92, "id": 573}, {"text": " We know about university presses, for example, which", "start": 2363.2, "stop": 2365.74, "id": 574}, {"text": " often do not have the same model.", "start": 2365.74, "stop": 2367.34, "id": 575}, {"text": " But where you see the most destructive practices is in the for profit areas and", "start": 2367.76, "stop": 2373.0, "id": 576}, {"text": " with the major publishers who do make most of their", "start": 2373.0, "stop": 2375.58, "id": 577}, {"text": " income off of individual sale.", "start": 2375.58, "stop": 2377.22, "id": 578}, {"text": " And when you take a look at it, I mean, I don't really think that I have to", "start": 2377.86, "stop": 2380.58, "id": 579}, {"text": " explain the publishers themselves have said, essentially they", "start": 2380.58, "stop": 2383.22, "id": 580}, {"text": " like the idea of licensing.", "start": 2383.22, "stop": 2384.96, "id": 581}, {"text": " They like the idea of cutting off the ability to buy a book because they can", "start": 2385.22, "stop": 2388.88, "id": 582}, {"text": " insure through licensing that every end user has to pay for it.", "start": 2388.88, "stop": 2392.4, "id": 583}, {"text": " There is no second hand use and that is good for their bottom line.", "start": 2392.74, "stop": 2395.94, "id": 584}, {"text": " So how profit actually, I think gets in the way of copyright is, it just, if your", "start": 2396.36, "stop": 2402.28, "id": 585}, {"text": " purpose is to make as much money as possible, you're not", "start": 2402.28, "stop": 2404.94, "id": 586}, {"text": " going to want to have fair use.", "start": 2404.94, "stop": 2406.58, "id": 587}, {"text": " You're not going to want to have any of the downstream uses.", "start": 2406.86, "stop": 2409.42, "id": 588}, {"text": " You simply want to get money by every user.", "start": 2409.42, "stop": 2412.46, "id": 589}, {"text": " And that I think is just not something that's", "start": 2412.88, "stop": 2416.0, "id": 590}, {"text": " harmonious with the concept of copyright.", "start": 2416.0, "stop": 2417.68, "id": 591}, {"text": " Yeah, I agree.", "start": 2419.1600000000003, "stop": 2420.96, "id": 592}, {"text": " I think the, you know, there's so many places where the kinds of fair uses we're", "start": 2421.4, "stop": 2426.42, "id": 593}, {"text": " talking about here can be seen to cut into revenue streams.", "start": 2426.42, "stop": 2431.58, "id": 594}, {"text": " But I also think it's about, as we talk about things like privacy and", "start": 2432.08, "stop": 2436.08, "id": 595}, {"text": " accessibility, consumer protection and so forth, keeping the conversation", "start": 2436.08, "stop": 2440.26, "id": 596}, {"text": " centered on, we don't want fair use and you're going to have", "start": 2440.26, "stop": 2444.32, "id": 597}, {"text": " to fight for every inch of it.", "start": 2444.32, "stop": 2445.84, "id": 598}, {"text": " And you might emerge at the end of it with a little bit of", "start": 2445.94, "stop": 2448.18, "id": 599}, {"text": " what you think you deserve.", "start": 2448.18, "stop": 2449.72, "id": 600}, {"text": " Keeps the conversation away from the production of those public goods, privacy,", "start": 2450.04, "stop": 2455.48, "id": 601}, {"text": " accessibility, you know, fair transactions and that kind of thing, which are", "start": 2455.48, "stop": 2458.78, "id": 602}, {"text": " also going to cost money, right?", "start": 2458.78, "stop": 2460.34, "id": 603}, {"text": " Accessibility costs money, right?", "start": 2460.62, "stop": 2462.32, "id": 604}, {"text": " It takes resources to put together works in accessible formats.", "start": 2462.44, "stop": 2466.86, "id": 605}, {"text": " Privacy costs money, right?", "start": 2466.86, "stop": 2468.66, "id": 606}, {"text": " So much of the revenue around books, for example, is subsidized by,", "start": 2468.84, "stop": 2474.2, "id": 607}, {"text": " you know, collecting data, right?", "start": 2474.2, "stop": 2475.78, "id": 608}, {"text": " I mean, or look at video, right?", "start": 2475.96, "stop": 2477.5, "id": 609}, {"text": " Take a look at what Netflix does in terms of viewing habits and how it uses that", "start": 2477.72, "stop": 2484.0, "id": 610}, {"text": " to focus its forward-looking development and all of that kind of stuff.", "start": 2484.0, "stop": 2488.0, "id": 611}, {"text": " So I also think the focus, keeping the conversation focused on that individual", "start": 2488.44, "stop": 2494.1, "id": 612}, {"text": " transaction and then sort of like what you're allowed to do after it keeps the", "start": 2494.1, "stop": 2498.32, "id": 613}, {"text": " conversation away from, how should this be?", "start": 2498.32, "stop": 2501.26, "id": 614}, {"text": " What should public policy look like around these industries?", "start": 2501.36, "stop": 2504.6, "id": 615}, {"text": " Because what's at the end of the rainbow for those conversations is not gonna be", "start": 2505.04, "stop": 2509.68, "id": 616}, {"text": " good for the revenue of these industries either.", "start": 2509.68, "stop": 2511.76, "id": 617}, {"text": " No, but before I move to the end of the rainbow, and I promise we will go there,", "start": 2513.1, "stop": 2516.7, "id": 618}, {"text": " what do y'all think the biggest threat that's currently posed by copyright", "start": 2517.46, "stop": 2521.18, "id": 619}, {"text": " serving the public interest is, or to, I guess, copyright itself as essentially?", "start": 2521.18, "stop": 2524.52, "id": 620}, {"text": " Is it licensing shifts?", "start": 2525.18, "stop": 2526.66, "id": 621}, {"text": " Is it the permission culture?", "start": 2526.98, "stop": 2528.36, "id": 622}, {"text": " Those are two of the ones you've mentioned.", "start": 2528.54, "stop": 2530.02, "id": 623}, {"text": " Or is it some other secret option letter C", "start": 2530.34, "stop": 2533.06, "id": 624}, {"text": " threat that we haven't talked about yet?", "start": 2533.06, "stop": 2535.02, "id": 625}, {"text": " I'll take a stab at this one first.", "start": 2539.36, "stop": 2541.04, "id": 626}, {"text": " I mean, so I think of something that Cindy Cohn from EFF, or the director of EFF", "start": 2541.32, "stop": 2547.78, "id": 627}, {"text": " for many years, and still, I think, told me one time, which is, you gotta stop", "start": 2547.78, "stop": 2553.34, "id": 628}, {"text": " looking at the world through copyright goggles.", "start": 2553.34, "stop": 2555.14, "id": 629}, {"text": " I've always thought about that.", "start": 2555.62, "stop": 2557.4, "id": 630}, {"text": " And I actually think that is a pretty existential problem for the", "start": 2557.74, "stop": 2563.9, "id": 631}, {"text": " sort of copyright industries.", "start": 2563.9, "stop": 2565.42, "id": 632}, {"text": " And I think for the constituencies that they serve as well, to sort of think of", "start": 2566.12, "stop": 2572.24, "id": 633}, {"text": " whatever the problem is, copyright is going to be the solution.", "start": 2572.24, "stop": 2577.58, "id": 634}, {"text": " And twiddling some bit of copyright, whether we're talking about the terms on", "start": 2577.58, "stop": 2582.4, "id": 635}, {"text": " which we can license, the contours of fair use, whether it's the ability to", "start": 2582.4, "stop": 2587.3, "id": 636}, {"text": " litigate copyright claims, think about the case act and the tribunal, or thinking", "start": 2587.3, "stop": 2593.0, "id": 637}, {"text": " about whatever other substantive contour of copyright is the way of solving, for", "start": 2593.0, "stop": 2598.46, "id": 638}, {"text": " example, things like the ability for creators to make a living, right?", "start": 2598.46, "stop": 2603.38, "id": 639}, {"text": " Thinking, oh, hello.", "start": 2604.22, "stop": 2605.18, "id": 640}, {"text": " Thinking about the ability to solve all of the public policy problems that they", "start": 2606.5, "stop": 2612.64, "id": 641}, {"text": " face, that their communities face as well.", "start": 2612.64, "stop": 2616.12, "id": 642}, {"text": " And assuming that we can find the answers to that in the limited array of levers", "start": 2616.86, "stop": 2621.72, "id": 643}, {"text": " and dials that copyright provides us.", "start": 2621.72, "stop": 2623.96, "id": 644}, {"text": " And you can see it, right?", "start": 2625.52, "stop": 2626.7, "id": 645}, {"text": " It's like we have starving artists who can't get health insurance.", "start": 2626.78, "stop": 2631.1, "id": 646}, {"text": " Instead of talking about health insurance as a problem, or medical care as a", "start": 2631.62, "stop": 2636.78, "id": 647}, {"text": " problem in this country, we're going to talk about like, you know, monkeying with", "start": 2636.78, "stop": 2642.28, "id": 648}, {"text": " the royalty rates or something like that, right?", "start": 2642.28, "stop": 2644.48, "id": 649}, {"text": " We're going to always put it in sort of copyright terms and instead", "start": 2644.56, "stop": 2648.64, "id": 650}, {"text": " of going at the problems directly.", "start": 2648.64, "stop": 2650.26, "id": 651}, {"text": " And so I see that as the biggest problem is just being constrained by that lens", "start": 2650.42, "stop": 2654.92, "id": 652}, {"text": " of copyright and looking through copyright goggles.", "start": 2654.92, "stop": 2656.88, "id": 653}, {"text": " I do think there actually is quite a bit of action on exactly what Blake's", "start": 2659.24, "stop": 2665.32, "id": 654}, {"text": " talking about, that everyone is realizing that copyright, copyright can be a", "start": 2665.32, "stop": 2669.72, "id": 655}, {"text": " barrier, but there are a lot of solutions that are possible outside of copyright.", "start": 2669.72, "stop": 2673.58, "id": 656}, {"text": " And so I hope that there is attention to that.", "start": 2674.16, "stop": 2676.7, "id": 657}, {"text": " Within copyright, and actually for a lot of issues, including health care, I", "start": 2676.86, "stop": 2681.44, "id": 658}, {"text": " actually think that the biggest barrier to real reform, to the effectiveness of", "start": 2681.44, "stop": 2686.3, "id": 659}, {"text": " copyright, to the effectiveness of pretty much everything, is too much", "start": 2686.3, "stop": 2690.08, "id": 660}, {"text": " difference to money.", "start": 2690.08, "stop": 2691.96, "id": 661}, {"text": " It's too much difference to publishers.", "start": 2692.28, "stop": 2694.06, "id": 662}, {"text": " It's too much difference to business.", "start": 2694.44, "stop": 2695.66, "id": 663}, {"text": " If we actually look at the welfare of people, if we look at the welfare of", "start": 2696.58, "stop": 2701.3, "id": 664}, {"text": " society, short-term and long-term, I think we end up coming up with a completely", "start": 2701.3, "stop": 2705.56, "id": 665}, {"text": " different set of priorities and a completely different set of rules, legislation.", "start": 2705.56, "stop": 2711.4, "id": 666}, {"text": " But unless that happens, I don't really see anything changing.", "start": 2711.98, "stop": 2716.04, "id": 667}, {"text": " Yeah, and Michelle, just to underscore, I completely agree within copyright, and", "start": 2717.1, "stop": 2721.16, "id": 668}, {"text": " I think there are still a huge swath of problems that", "start": 2721.16, "stop": 2724.52, "id": 669}, {"text": " need to be solved with copyright.", "start": 2724.52, "stop": 2726.04, "id": 670}, {"text": " The sort of fealty to the interests of industrial rights holders,", "start": 2726.98, "stop": 2731.92, "id": 671}, {"text": " and not artists either.", "start": 2732.18, "stop": 2733.68, "id": 672}, {"text": " I feel like we always make this mistake in copyright debates to sort of assume", "start": 2734.2, "stop": 2738.4, "id": 673}, {"text": " that the industrial rights holders are the same as artists, but just focusing on", "start": 2738.4, "stop": 2743.62, "id": 674}, {"text": " what the sort of bottom line impact for them is gonna be, and not what is", "start": 2743.62, "stop": 2748.38, "id": 675}, {"text": " ultimately gonna serve artists, what's ultimately gonna serve", "start": 2748.38, "stop": 2751.3, "id": 676}, {"text": " readers and viewers and users.", "start": 2751.3, "stop": 2753.08, "id": 677}, {"text": " Not having that robust conversation, not having all those folks at the table and", "start": 2753.54, "stop": 2757.7, "id": 678}, {"text": " taking their opinions seriously, that makes it hard to get good copyright policy", "start": 2757.7, "stop": 2763.34, "id": 679}, {"text": " for the things that copyright is good at solving.", "start": 2763.34, "stop": 2766.34, "id": 680}, {"text": " And so just total plus one on that.", "start": 2766.7, "stop": 2769.22, "id": 681}, {"text": " I feel like we spend a lot of time talking about all of the troubles and", "start": 2770.7200000000003, "stop": 2774.36, "id": 682}, {"text": " tribulations that copyright has created for not just creators, and in some ways", "start": 2774.36, "stop": 2778.3, "id": 683}, {"text": " artists, but also for end users, libraries, for a variety of", "start": 2778.3, "stop": 2781.88, "id": 684}, {"text": " patrons, for a variety of people.", "start": 2781.88, "stop": 2783.94, "id": 685}, {"text": " But I don't want us to end on that note, because that seems like a huge bummer.", "start": 2784.58, "stop": 2789.08, "id": 686}, {"text": " So I wanna get optimistic, and imagine what might go right", "start": 2789.94, "stop": 2794.06, "id": 687}, {"text": " in copyright's fantastic future.", "start": 2794.06, "stop": 2795.86, "id": 688}, {"text": " Let's just pretend that there is a fantastic future for copyright, which I know", "start": 2795.98, "stop": 2799.08, "id": 689}, {"text": " requires us to use our imaginations really robustly.", "start": 2799.08, "stop": 2802.24, "id": 690}, {"text": " One of the questions I actually had for y'all was, is the best hope for reversing", "start": 2802.84, "stop": 2807.08, "id": 691}, {"text": " the trend of copyright maximalism de-centering copyright entirely?", "start": 2807.08, "stop": 2809.94, "id": 692}, {"text": " And you both touched on that in different ways, and it seems like", "start": 2810.16, "stop": 2812.34, "id": 693}, {"text": " sometimes the answer is yes.", "start": 2812.34, "stop": 2814.12, "id": 694}, {"text": " But I do have a kind of, like a, just a curious question.", "start": 2814.74, "stop": 2818.98, "id": 695}, {"text": " Is there any copyright policy that makes you optimistic in any way that currently", "start": 2819.42, "stop": 2823.02, "id": 696}, {"text": " exists and that could be invoked in the future?", "start": 2823.02, "stop": 2825.26, "id": 697}, {"text": " Aside from fair use, like when you talk about copyright...", "start": 2828.18, "stop": 2831.14, "id": 698}, {"text": " Oh, you can use fair use.", "start": 2831.14, "stop": 2832.08, "id": 699}, {"text": " You can take fair use off the board.", "start": 2832.2, "stop": 2833.52, "id": 700}, {"text": " No one's stopping you.", "start": 2833.66, "stop": 2834.54, "id": 701}, {"text": " I mean, I think fair use has a tremendous amount of promise.", "start": 2836.46, "stop": 2839.64, "id": 702}, {"text": " There is a lot that I think that we actually can do with copyright reward.", "start": 2839.78, "stop": 2842.98, "id": 703}, {"text": " Justifying it through fair use.", "start": 2844.2, "stop": 2845.36, "id": 704}, {"text": " The difficulty with that is that anyone who really wants to be creative is going", "start": 2845.52, "stop": 2849.62, "id": 705}, {"text": " to have to be willing to essentially be sued.", "start": 2849.62, "stop": 2852.42, "id": 706}, {"text": " Anyone who's willing to be creative, who's willing to test those barriers, those", "start": 2853.02, "stop": 2856.58, "id": 707}, {"text": " limits, they have to be willing to go through a very, very", "start": 2856.58, "stop": 2860.72, "id": 708}, {"text": " lengthy court suit, and that is unfortunate.", "start": 2860.72, "stop": 2862.4, "id": 709}, {"text": " But I would say that I see a great deal of promise in fair use and how flexible", "start": 2862.4, "stop": 2866.6, "id": 710}, {"text": " it is in adapting to whatever technologies, whatever society, whatever", "start": 2866.6, "stop": 2871.1, "id": 711}, {"text": " needs come down the pike.", "start": 2871.1, "stop": 2872.84, "id": 712}, {"text": " It has the ability to do that.", "start": 2873.02, "stop": 2874.62, "id": 713}, {"text": " Flexibility of fair use for a win.", "start": 2875.66, "stop": 2876.92, "id": 714}, {"text": " I love alliteration, so I'm even more excited about that particular option.", "start": 2877.1, "stop": 2880.4, "id": 715}, {"text": " Blake, what do you think?", "start": 2880.68, "stop": 2881.86, "id": 716}, {"text": " Flexibility of fair use, something else?", "start": 2882.28, "stop": 2883.72, "id": 717}, {"text": " Now I'm feeling a lot of pressure to come up with my own alliteration, but", "start": 2884.12, "stop": 2888.8, "id": 718}, {"text": " yeah, totally agree on fair use.", "start": 2888.8, "stop": 2892.4, "id": 719}, {"text": " I guess the other one I would say is I think about the arcs of these sort of", "start": 2892.82, "stop": 2897.12, "id": 720}, {"text": " public goods that we've talked about in generally, whether that's consumer", "start": 2897.12, "stop": 2900.0, "id": 721}, {"text": " protection or privacy or accessibility or competition policy or whatever else.", "start": 2900.0, "stop": 2904.42, "id": 722}, {"text": " And I see that they have pretty long arcs.", "start": 2904.92, "stop": 2907.16, "id": 723}, {"text": " And I think about, for example, where the FCC was on closed", "start": 2907.36, "stop": 2911.88, "id": 724}, {"text": " captioning in the 1970s, right?", "start": 2911.88, "stop": 2913.9, "id": 725}, {"text": " The FCC had to be sort of dragged into thinking about accessibility.", "start": 2913.9, "stop": 2918.44, "id": 726}, {"text": " And I think a lot of these public goods that we're talking about in the", "start": 2919.2, "stop": 2922.72, "id": 727}, {"text": " communities that are associated with them, whether that's people with", "start": 2922.72, "stop": 2925.54, "id": 728}, {"text": " disabilities or vidders or folks who are repairing stuff or libraries or whoever", "start": 2925.54, "stop": 2930.9, "id": 729}, {"text": " else, continuing to engage with the machinery of copyright policymaking and", "start": 2930.9, "stop": 2936.96, "id": 730}, {"text": " continuing to participate in those conversations and to be at the Copyright", "start": 2936.96, "stop": 2942.16, "id": 731}, {"text": " Office, to be at the Library of Congress, to be engaging with the White House, to", "start": 2942.16, "stop": 2946.38, "id": 732}, {"text": " be engaging with the IP committees in Congress.", "start": 2946.38, "stop": 2950.44, "id": 733}, {"text": " I think there's education and there is dialogue that can happen there that has", "start": 2951.16, "stop": 2958.0, "id": 734}, {"text": " changed how we view things, even looking back to when the DMCA was created 20", "start": 2958.0, "stop": 2963.96, "id": 735}, {"text": " years ago and the first raft of sort of tech and IP clinics were created.", "start": 2963.96, "stop": 2968.62, "id": 736}, {"text": " I think there's a lot more representation in those forums now.", "start": 2968.62, "stop": 2971.9, "id": 737}, {"text": " And I think that has the potential over time.", "start": 2972.34, "stop": 2975.04, "id": 738}, {"text": " I'm an optimist that those voices that didn't get brought to the table", "start": 2975.36, "stop": 2981.96, "id": 739}, {"text": " back in the 90s, back in the 70s, dating way back to the 1909 Act, I", "start": 2981.96, "stop": 2987.78, "id": 740}, {"text": " think they can get brought to the table.", "start": 2987.78, "stop": 2989.44, "id": 741}, {"text": " And I'm a believer in trying to have those conversations", "start": 2989.48, "stop": 2992.8, "id": 742}, {"text": " and trying to find some balance.", "start": 2992.8, "stop": 2994.6, "id": 743}, {"text": " I think one of the places that we see that sort of potential site of resistance", "start": 2995.5, "stop": 3000.2, "id": 744}, {"text": " among all of those different coalitions that you just mentioned, Blake, which", "start": 3000.2, "stop": 3002.98, "id": 745}, {"text": " were so rich and also totally absent from a lot of the conversations throughout", "start": 3002.98, "stop": 3007.66, "id": 746}, {"text": " copyright history, that we can see potentially", "start": 3007.66, "stop": 3010.48, "id": 747}, {"text": " influencing the conversation going forward.", "start": 3010.48, "stop": 3012.2, "id": 748}, {"text": " Another big one is libraries, which is sort of Michelle's incredibly", "start": 3012.52, "stop": 3016.02, "id": 749}, {"text": " nuanced value act.", "start": 3016.02, "stop": 3017.72, "id": 750}, {"text": " And like, what is one thing you would love to see libraries pushing for in the", "start": 3017.88, "stop": 3021.38, "id": 751}, {"text": " future of copyright to add to the conversation that Blake was just saying is", "start": 3021.38, "stop": 3025.42, "id": 752}, {"text": " being enriched by more people being part of the dialogue at the Copyright Office", "start": 3025.42, "stop": 3028.68, "id": 753}, {"text": " and the Triennial Rulemakings, or indeed, if there are other potential", "start": 3028.68, "stop": 3033.02, "id": 754}, {"text": " modifications to copyright law, what would you like to see libraries", "start": 3033.02, "stop": 3035.98, "id": 755}, {"text": " contributing to that conversation, Michelle?", "start": 3035.98, "stop": 3037.56, "id": 756}, {"text": " So honestly, what I would like is something that is worldwide, which I'm not", "start": 3038.9, "stop": 3044.06, "id": 757}, {"text": " entirely sure is possible, but I would actually like a worldwide digital library", "start": 3044.06, "stop": 3049.02, "id": 758}, {"text": " of all published work, which I think is technically possible.", "start": 3049.02, "stop": 3053.24, "id": 759}, {"text": " But whether or not laws from different nations get in the way, I think it will.", "start": 3054.72, "stop": 3058.8, "id": 760}, {"text": " But I certainly think it's possible.", "start": 3059.1, "stop": 3060.5, "id": 761}, {"text": " I think that what any library cannot do by itself, all libraries can do together", "start": 3060.64, "stop": 3065.48, "id": 762}, {"text": " and all libraries can do for society.", "start": 3065.48, "stop": 3067.34, "id": 763}, {"text": " I mean, the preservation of our history, the preservation of publications, it", "start": 3067.94, "stop": 3071.74, "id": 764}, {"text": " should be important enough to every single nation that we", "start": 3071.74, "stop": 3074.94, "id": 765}, {"text": " should be willing to invest in it.", "start": 3074.94, "stop": 3076.56, "id": 766}, {"text": " But we just haven't gotten there yet.", "start": 3077.3199999999997, "stop": 3079.9, "id": 767}, {"text": " What are the possibilities?", "start": 3080.92, "stop": 3081.76, "id": 768}, {"text": " Jump in.", "start": 3082.3, "stop": 3082.76, "id": 769}, {"text": " Go Amanda, go, go, go.", "start": 3083.56, "stop": 3085.1, "id": 770}, {"text": " I'm going to another question. So please continue your line of thought.", "start": 3085.36, "stop": 3088.4, "id": 771}, {"text": " I was actually going to give a general version of the specific thing that", "start": 3089.12, "stop": 3093.86, "id": 772}, {"text": " Michelle just said, which is, I think articulating a normative version and", "start": 3093.86, "stop": 3099.04, "id": 773}, {"text": " executing and iterating on that normative version of what libraries look like in", "start": 3099.04, "stop": 3104.18, "id": 774}, {"text": " a digital age, what that should mean to the citizens of", "start": 3104.18, "stop": 3109.74, "id": 775}, {"text": " 2020 and beyond.", "start": 3109.74, "stop": 3111.86, "id": 776}, {"text": " I think it's critical.", "start": 3112.22, "stop": 3113.58, "id": 777}, {"text": " I think we're in this very weird time where we don't know", "start": 3113.88, "stop": 3119.36, "id": 778}, {"text": " exactly what that is.", "start": 3119.36, "stop": 3121.3, "id": 779}, {"text": " And it seems like the publishers are trying to articulate a world", "start": 3121.6, "stop": 3126.38, "id": 780}, {"text": " where there are no libraries anymore.", "start": 3126.38, "stop": 3127.98, "id": 781}, {"text": " Some of the policy moves that I see publishers make are hard to", "start": 3127.98, "stop": 3132.98, "id": 782}, {"text": " explain other than by...", "start": 3132.98, "stop": 3134.98, "id": 783}, {"text": " We couldn't have had libraries in the first place if this view had taken hold.", "start": 3136.7799999999997, "stop": 3140.78, "id": 784}, {"text": " So I think articulating that really grand vision that like Michelle just did is", "start": 3141.36, "stop": 3147.68, "id": 785}, {"text": " so critical for libraries to do to say, this is the place in our digital", "start": 3147.68, "stop": 3152.4, "id": 786}, {"text": " community that libraries hold and we need a copyright policy to match that.", "start": 3152.4, "stop": 3157.36, "id": 787}, {"text": " This is not just the library policy of the 1970s. This is the library policy", "start": 3157.36, "stop": 3163.94, "id": 788}, {"text": " of whatever the future looks like.", "start": 3163.94, "stop": 3167.16, "id": 789}, {"text": " So I think that's super critical.", "start": 3167.96, "stop": 3169.58, "id": 790}, {"text": " That actually brings us into a question from the chat.", "start": 3170.64, "stop": 3172.98, "id": 791}, {"text": " And I'm going to slightly rehash it to give a broader sort of question, which is", "start": 3173.76, "stop": 3178.96, "id": 792}, {"text": " the person was asking whether a conference akin to the Marrakech Treaty could be", "start": 3178.96, "stop": 3183.98, "id": 793}, {"text": " possible to justify something like, general user rights or I'm going to", "start": 3183.98, "stop": 3187.9, "id": 794}, {"text": " include general patron rights.", "start": 3187.9, "stop": 3189.42, "id": 795}, {"text": " And it's really hard because the Marrakech Treaty was hashed out over such a long", "start": 3190.32, "stop": 3194.98, "id": 796}, {"text": " period of time and was so deeply embattled among various constituencies over many", "start": 3194.98, "stop": 3200.54, "id": 797}, {"text": " years in ways it's...", "start": 3200.54, "stop": 3202.19, "id": 798}, {"text": " It ended up in a place that was really powerful, but it's not necessarily a model", "start": 3202.92, "stop": 3206.44, "id": 799}, {"text": " of success in terms of its procedure.", "start": 3206.44, "stop": 3208.56, "id": 800}, {"text": " So what do you think about something that's an international gathering that talks", "start": 3208.56, "stop": 3213.06, "id": 801}, {"text": " about the rights of users or the rights of patrons?", "start": 3213.06, "stop": 3215.64, "id": 802}, {"text": " I mean, international law... I'm sorry, go ahead, Michelle.", "start": 3219.38, "stop": 3221.98, "id": 803}, {"text": " Go ahead, Blake. You go first.", "start": 3222.82, "stop": 3224.38, "id": 804}, {"text": " International law is tough.", "start": 3227.04, "stop": 3228.52, "id": 805}, {"text": " It's the time and the resources that it takes to meaningfully engage in that", "start": 3228.52, "stop": 3233.64, "id": 806}, {"text": " process really, really hard.", "start": 3233.64, "stop": 3235.74, "id": 807}, {"text": " And I think Marrakech stands as the sort of exception", "start": 3235.94, "stop": 3239.26, "id": 808}, {"text": " that demonstrates that rule.", "start": 3239.26, "stop": 3240.94, "id": 809}, {"text": " But I think, you know, one thing you can take away from Marrakech as a success", "start": 3241.66, "stop": 3246.94, "id": 810}, {"text": " story to the extent...", "start": 3246.94, "stop": 3248.66, "id": 811}, {"text": " And Marrakech was successful in a number of regards, you know, that we have", "start": 3248.66, "stop": 3253.86, "id": 812}, {"text": " specific exceptions and limitations around the", "start": 3253.86, "stop": 3256.8, "id": 813}, {"text": " world for people with disabilities.", "start": 3256.8, "stop": 3258.5, "id": 814}, {"text": " Now, it's really, really important. And I'd want to underrate the impact of that.", "start": 3258.5, "stop": 3263.82, "id": 815}, {"text": " I think the critical thing that let Marrakech succeed was having that big vision", "start": 3264.3, "stop": 3270.34, "id": 816}, {"text": " like the one that Michelle just laid out and saying, this is the library that we", "start": 3270.34, "stop": 3276.34, "id": 817}, {"text": " need of the future. We had it in Marrakech. We had the right to", "start": 3276.34, "stop": 3279.16, "id": 818}, {"text": " read. We had ending the book famine.", "start": 3279.16, "stop": 3280.78, "id": 819}, {"text": " We had those kind of ambitious touchstones that let all of the minutiae of", "start": 3280.78, "stop": 3287.38, "id": 820}, {"text": " international law and negotiation, copyright minutiae and all of that sort of...", "start": 3287.38, "stop": 3292.74, "id": 821}, {"text": " At the end of the day, ended up being subordinate to that because it was so hard", "start": 3292.74, "stop": 3296.58, "id": 822}, {"text": " to argue with the vision that everyone should have the right to read.", "start": 3296.58, "stop": 3299.94, "id": 823}, {"text": " Right. And so I think having that vision, we need to have a library that has", "start": 3300.4, "stop": 3304.66, "id": 824}, {"text": " every book available, you know, a universal digital library, that kind of thing.", "start": 3304.66, "stop": 3309.78, "id": 825}, {"text": " You know, that's the kind of thing that people can understand. And that's the", "start": 3310.3399999999997, "stop": 3313.92, "id": 826}, {"text": " kind of thing that can give birth to these kind of successful international", "start": 3313.92, "stop": 3316.82, "id": 827}, {"text": " movements. I'm sorry, Michelle, I didn't mean to step on your toes.", "start": 3316.82, "stop": 3319.38, "id": 828}, {"text": " No, I mean, I think you've phrased it perfectly. And I do think international law", "start": 3320.74, "stop": 3325.44, "id": 829}, {"text": " is particularly difficult when it comes to copyright simply because it does vary", "start": 3325.44, "stop": 3329.0, "id": 830}, {"text": " despite all the treaties vary so widely.", "start": 3329.0, "stop": 3331.32, "id": 831}, {"text": " Just take a look at fair use. It's so uniquely American. Even with fair dealing", "start": 3331.66, "stop": 3336.58, "id": 832}, {"text": " in other countries, many countries don't have anything like it. So trying to come", "start": 3336.58, "stop": 3342.34, "id": 833}, {"text": " up with something that works everywhere is difficult. I do think there is a path", "start": 3342.34, "stop": 3346.64, "id": 834}, {"text": " right now, curiously, that is tied with all the discussions with climate change.", "start": 3346.64, "stop": 3351.6, "id": 835}, {"text": " Right. We already know that Haiti has once before lost all of its information", "start": 3351.9, "stop": 3358.36, "id": 836}, {"text": " resources. And I think a hurricane it was. And everyone is at greater risk today", "start": 3358.36, "stop": 3364.38, "id": 837}, {"text": " than they were yesterday and will be at greater risk tomorrow.", "start": 3364.38, "stop": 3366.84, "id": 838}, {"text": " So I think an argument can be made that building this National Digital Library is", "start": 3366.84, "stop": 3371.06, "id": 839}, {"text": " the only way to ensure the preservation of the world's history. Now, whether or", "start": 3371.06, "stop": 3376.48, "id": 840}, {"text": " not they will ultimately extend the patrons, which is what matters most to me is", "start": 3376.48, "stop": 3380.88, "id": 841}, {"text": " that we don't just save the information, but it is accessible information.", "start": 3380.88, "stop": 3384.72, "id": 842}, {"text": " That's because the harder sell by at least think that we can get to the first", "start": 3385.54, "stop": 3388.62, "id": 843}, {"text": " step of building that library, maybe by essentially holding on to climate change", "start": 3388.62, "stop": 3394.8, "id": 844}, {"text": " and saying, Listen, this is at least a solution to a partial", "start": 3394.8, "stop": 3398.46, "id": 845}, {"text": " problem, we should address it now.", "start": 3398.46, "stop": 3400.08, "id": 846}, {"text": " So to bring that back to copyright law because I think that is all closely", "start": 3402.08, "stop": 3405.72, "id": 847}, {"text": " related and one of the conversations we're going to have to have or what levers", "start": 3405.72, "stop": 3408.72, "id": 848}, {"text": " can be pressed to make copyright change by invoking other crises right and I", "start": 3408.72, "stop": 3413.42, "id": 849}, {"text": " think climate is definitely one of those options.", "start": 3413.42, "stop": 3415.72, "id": 850}, {"text": " But both of the papers. This is the sort of final theme of the two papers", "start": 3416.42, "stop": 3419.94, "id": 851}, {"text": " together, is this importance of accessible knowledge right it's no good if it's", "start": 3419.94, "stop": 3424.5, "id": 852}, {"text": " just preserved somewhere it has to be available to the", "start": 3424.5, "stop": 3427.02, "id": 853}, {"text": " public in order for it to be useful.", "start": 3427.02, "stop": 3428.56, "id": 854}, {"text": " And so what is one concrete policy or practice you'd like to see adopted related", "start": 3428.56, "stop": 3434.36, "id": 855}, {"text": " to copyright law that could increase accessibility for all humankind, or at least", "start": 3434.36, "stop": 3438.62, "id": 856}, {"text": " all American citizens or all American residents.", "start": 3438.62, "stop": 3441.28, "id": 857}, {"text": " I asked a stumper I'm sorry I didn't mean to, we have one more question so don't", "start": 3448.52, "stop": 3452.26, "id": 858}, {"text": " worry I'll ask an easy one next time.", "start": 3452.26, "stop": 3453.96, "id": 859}, {"text": " I'm not sure I have an answer that late.", "start": 3456.64, "stop": 3458.3, "id": 860}, {"text": " Yeah, that's a, that's a tough one so so I'm one, one thing related to copyright", "start": 3459.94, "stop": 3465.06, "id": 861}, {"text": " law to increase accessibility. I mean, I, you know, one, one interesting idea I'm", "start": 3465.06, "stop": 3470.86, "id": 862}, {"text": " not sure if I if I like this idea but I've heard it enough times in talking about", "start": 3470.86, "stop": 3474.94, "id": 863}, {"text": " this paper that that I think I throw it out there, which is to think about", "start": 3474.94, "stop": 3479.2, "id": 864}, {"text": " conditioning copyright protection on the", "start": 3479.2, "stop": 3486.08, "id": 865}, {"text": " provision of some of the public goods that we've talking talked about right in", "start": 3486.08, "stop": 3490.02, "id": 866}, {"text": " other words, condition, your receipt of copyright and your ability to assert", "start": 3490.02, "stop": 3495.08, "id": 867}, {"text": " copyright is a right on your, your, you know, respect for privacy on your, your", "start": 3495.08, "stop": 3500.94, "id": 868}, {"text": " provision of works in accessible formats, your, you know, your treatment of", "start": 3500.94, "stop": 3506.98, "id": 869}, {"text": " consumers and that kind of thing in other words like trying to hitch copyright", "start": 3506.98, "stop": 3511.2, "id": 870}, {"text": " protection and the grant of copyright protection into some of these ideas I think", "start": 3511.2, "stop": 3515.82, "id": 871}, {"text": " that's kind of an interesting idea I'm not sure I endorse it but since you said I", "start": 3515.82, "stop": 3520.8, "id": 872}, {"text": " had to do something related to copyright law that's that's the", "start": 3520.8, "stop": 3523.38, "id": 873}, {"text": " most interesting one I've heard recently.", "start": 3523.38, "stop": 3524.96, "id": 874}, {"text": " I think that's great. I like that. So, my proposal is, is much more basic and", "start": 3525.44, "stop": 3530.7, "id": 875}, {"text": " that's to, I think, to reduce copyright back to down to 14 years.", "start": 3530.7, "stop": 3534.7, "id": 876}, {"text": " If we could reduce the term of copyright protection that would do", "start": 3536.4, "stop": 3539.88, "id": 877}, {"text": " amazing things for accessibility.", "start": 3539.88, "stop": 3541.76, "id": 878}, {"text": " Yeah, there's a lot there's a lot of dreamy options that are not totally off the", "start": 3543.22, "stop": 3548.06, "id": 879}, {"text": " table but not totally on the table that I think it's important to consider and", "start": 3548.06, "stop": 3551.58, "id": 880}, {"text": " fantasize about in a collective way.", "start": 3551.58, "stop": 3553.78, "id": 881}, {"text": " So it feels celebratory instead of deeply sad. But that actually brings me to the", "start": 3554.3, "stop": 3558.58, "id": 882}, {"text": " final question I have, which is going to be a riff on somebody's question which", "start": 3558.58, "stop": 3562.38, "id": 883}, {"text": " is, what are some of the ways that individuals can meaningfully, meaningfully", "start": 3562.38, "stop": 3566.52, "id": 884}, {"text": " contribute to these policy discussions involving copyright.", "start": 3566.52, "stop": 3569.74, "id": 885}, {"text": " Are there ways for individuals to get involved in these conversations to push the", "start": 3569.74, "stop": 3574.2, "id": 886}, {"text": " needle in one direction towards accessibility.", "start": 3574.2, "stop": 3576.72, "id": 887}, {"text": " Yeah, I mean I think about, and actually this is a lot of the work that that my", "start": 3578.62, "stop": 3584.52, "id": 888}, {"text": " student attorneys do and my clinic and Amanda I know that yours, yours do as", "start": 3584.52, "stop": 3589.12, "id": 889}, {"text": " well, is that the the Copyright Office does a tremendous amount of of studying", "start": 3589.12, "stop": 3595.84, "id": 890}, {"text": " of these issues from, you know, right now the thing that sticks out the most is,", "start": 3595.84, "stop": 3602.0, "id": 891}, {"text": " is thinking about extra protections for news publishers and what that, you know,", "start": 3602.0, "stop": 3608.52, "id": 892}, {"text": " sort of akin to the Australia and your European models.", "start": 3608.68, "stop": 3612.72, "id": 893}, {"text": " So they do lots of these, these sort of rule makings and studies where they,", "start": 3612.72, "stop": 3617.32, "id": 894}, {"text": " where they take public comment. And, you know, my experience of the Copyright", "start": 3617.38, "stop": 3622.58, "id": 895}, {"text": " Office is they sort of expect the rights holders to come in and then they sort of", "start": 3622.58, "stop": 3627.52, "id": 896}, {"text": " expect the sort of copy leftists of the world to come in and, you know, make the", "start": 3627.52, "stop": 3633.68, "id": 897}, {"text": " maximalist and minimalist pitches respectively. And what I've seen a number of", "start": 3633.68, "stop": 3639.22, "id": 898}, {"text": " times over the years is when they hear from people who are really affected by how", "start": 3639.22, "stop": 3645.46, "id": 899}, {"text": " copyright policy works in their everyday activities, whether that's hearing from", "start": 3645.46, "stop": 3650.28, "id": 900}, {"text": " librarians about how copyright affects their work, whether that's hearing from", "start": 3650.28, "stop": 3654.86, "id": 901}, {"text": " people with disabilities or disability services professionals or are hearing from", "start": 3654.86, "stop": 3660.62, "id": 902}, {"text": " people that are that are trying to repair their stuff or hearing from vidders", "start": 3660.62, "stop": 3664.42, "id": 903}, {"text": " hearing from remixers hearing from people directly that have this experience with", "start": 3664.42, "stop": 3669.5, "id": 904}, {"text": " copyright and have something to share. So engaging with that public comment", "start": 3669.5, "stop": 3673.98, "id": 905}, {"text": " process and providing those real stories that aren't, you know, the, the sort of", "start": 3673.98, "stop": 3678.96, "id": 906}, {"text": " maximalist minimalist but like here's how this plays out in real life.", "start": 3678.96, "stop": 3682.4, "id": 907}, {"text": " And I will just say if that's you and you feel like you've, you've got a that", "start": 3682.78, "stop": 3686.88, "id": 908}, {"text": " story or you've got a better yet a group of people for whom that story is true.", "start": 3686.88, "stop": 3690.26, "id": 909}, {"text": " I'm always happy to talk to folks about that because sometimes we can see from", "start": 3690.26, "stop": 3695.2, "id": 910}, {"text": " from paying attention to what the Copyright Office is up to you or what the, the", "start": 3695.2, "stop": 3699.02, "id": 911}, {"text": " committees in Congress are up to that'd be really powerful to go share that story", "start": 3699.02, "stop": 3703.16, "id": 912}, {"text": " and that's something that that clinics can help with.", "start": 3703.16, "stop": 3705.86, "id": 913}, {"text": " Yeah, and before Michelle you're welcome to jump in but I just want to address a", "start": 3705.86, "stop": 3709.7, "id": 914}, {"text": " second question that was on the queue from somebody else from a different angle", "start": 3709.7, "stop": 3712.98, "id": 915}, {"text": " which is what can we do as lawyers, recognizing that this is such a political", "start": 3712.98, "stop": 3716.5, "id": 916}, {"text": " question and such a not a political question the legal sense but a political", "start": 3716.5, "stop": 3719.62, "id": 917}, {"text": " question in the practical sense. How can we as lawyers be involved and I think", "start": 3719.62, "stop": 3723.34, "id": 918}, {"text": " Blake has identified one way which is representing individuals or small", "start": 3723.34, "stop": 3727.42, "id": 919}, {"text": " coalitions that have stories to tell that otherwise would not be told, and that", "start": 3727.42, "stop": 3732.16, "id": 920}, {"text": " disrupt that maximalist minimalist ping pong expectation at the Copyright Office", "start": 3732.16, "stop": 3738.18, "id": 921}, {"text": " those stories need to be told and as a lawyer, it can be really powerful for you", "start": 3738.18, "stop": 3741.46, "id": 922}, {"text": " to represent those groups, although clinics also can do the job.", "start": 3741.46, "stop": 3745.42, "id": 923}, {"text": " And in [...]", "start": 3746.86, "stop": 3747.92, "id": 924}, {"text": " So, tough one to all of Blake's comments and as well as yours. And I will say", "start": 3749.74, "stop": 3754.36, "id": 925}, {"text": " that it's what would be very helpful for lawyers to do I think is just providing", "start": 3754.36, "stop": 3758.94, "id": 926}, {"text": " a cover it is really not all that easy to understand, I think a lot of authors", "start": 3758.94, "stop": 3763.96, "id": 927}, {"text": " don't even know what their rights are. So even creating a toolkit for authors to", "start": 3763.96, "stop": 3768.28, "id": 928}, {"text": " understand how to how to do all sorts of things or what their rights are with", "start": 3768.28, "stop": 3772.38, "id": 929}, {"text": " their works, I think would be very useful.", "start": 3772.38, "stop": 3774.86, "id": 930}, {"text": " Also for the general public specifically researchers, I would say, is doing", "start": 3775.54, "stop": 3779.94, "id": 931}, {"text": " research that actually defunct a lot of the assumptions that publishers base", "start": 3779.94, "stop": 3784.36, "id": 932}, {"text": " their advocacy on, for example that piracy is so damaging because they've assumed", "start": 3784.36, "stop": 3789.84, "id": 933}, {"text": " that every pirate copy is actually a lock sale.", "start": 3789.84, "stop": 3795.66, "id": 934}, {"text": " Whereas I think that can be easily debunked in terms of a lot of people will", "start": 3796.82, "stop": 3800.46, "id": 935}, {"text": " consume something for free that will not actually pay for it. So I mean where you", "start": 3800.46, "stop": 3804.94, "id": 936}, {"text": " can do research is about a lot of their assumptions that form their arguments for", "start": 3804.94, "stop": 3811.3, "id": 937}, {"text": " why copyright should be the way that it should be. I think researchers can", "start": 3811.3, "stop": 3814.82, "id": 938}, {"text": " actually do that research and confront publishers with hard data.", "start": 3814.82, "stop": 3818.26, "id": 939}, {"text": " I try to do that research all the time when people leave free donuts in the break", "start": 3818.26, "stop": 3821.94, "id": 940}, {"text": " room and I never buy them, I personally am trying to fix this problem.", "start": 3821.94, "stop": 3825.52, "id": 941}, {"text": " One more thing that you can do is be it well yeah be involved with library", "start": 3826.5, "stop": 3831.78, "id": 942}, {"text": " futures, and one place you can go so two things.", "start": 3831.78, "stop": 3834.68, "id": 943}, {"text": " Michelle you brought up authors not knowing their rights and one place you can go", "start": 3835.26, "stop": 3839.6, "id": 944}, {"text": " for more information about that is the Authors Alliance does a really great lot", "start": 3839.6, "stop": 3843.06, "id": 945}, {"text": " of work, putting out resources for authors to teach them", "start": 3843.06, "stop": 3845.9, "id": 946}, {"text": " about the contracts of their work.", "start": 3845.9, "stop": 3847.4, "id": 947}, {"text": " The terms of their agreements and how to negotiate for those things so that's one", "start": 3847.4, "stop": 3851.14, "id": 948}, {"text": " place you can go, but the other place you can go to be involved, whether it's as", "start": 3851.14, "stop": 3854.68, "id": 949}, {"text": " an advocate or an individual is being involved with library futures which I think", "start": 3854.68, "stop": 3859.48, "id": 950}, {"text": " brings me to the end of the panel, so I can kick it over to Jenny, maybe, maybe", "start": 3859.48, "stop": 3864.58, "id": 951}, {"text": " that was really seamless as a transition, let's do it.", "start": 3864.58, "stop": 3866.76, "id": 952}, {"text": " Thank you so much, Amanda and thank you waffles as well for your presentation", "start": 3869.1400000000003, "stop": 3876.02, "id": 953}, {"text": " it's important to also thank our pets and thank you of course to Michelle", "start": 3876.02, "stop": 3882.54, "id": 954}, {"text": " and Blake for this fantastic panel and to Chris and Caitlin for supporting us", "start": 3882.54, "stop": 3888.94, "id": 955}, {"text": " with links and follow ups throughout.", "start": 3888.94, "stop": 3891.1, "id": 956}, {"text": " I would love if we could get up our slides just to give a quick shout out to a", "start": 3892.1800000000003, "stop": 3897.52, "id": 957}, {"text": " couple of things so save the dates for us on the set on December 15 will", "start": 3897.52, "stop": 3904.46, "id": 958}, {"text": " be doing or around December 15 will be doing a discussion on streaming media with", "start": 3904.46, "stop": 3910.02, "id": 959}, {"text": " some folks from point of view from PBS who are a distributor of streaming media", "start": 3910.02, "stop": 3916.6, "id": 960}, {"text": " DVD's materials for libraries and have a great library program Kathleen dealer", "start": 3917.2200000000003, "stop": 3921.38, "id": 961}, {"text": " empty from Johns Hopkins University, and with Chris Paulson from OSU very cool", "start": 3921.38, "stop": 3928.16, "id": 962}, {"text": " panel very excited about it folks have been asking a lot about what we're doing", "start": 3928.16, "stop": 3932.24, "id": 963}, {"text": " in terms of other media that are not just books.", "start": 3932.24, "stop": 3934.58, "id": 964}, {"text": " There will be a public domain day big celebration and 12022 and throughout the", "start": 3934.58, "stop": 3941.08, "id": 965}, {"text": " month of January, we will be celebrating our first", "start": 3941.08, "stop": 3943.88, "id": 966}, {"text": " birthday here at library features.", "start": 3943.88, "stop": 3945.96, "id": 967}, {"text": " So once again thank you so much to Blake and Michelle, there's a lot going on at", "start": 3946.68, "stop": 3951.8, "id": 968}, {"text": " library futures as well that I am so excited to share with everyone, including", "start": 3951.8, "stop": 3958.42, "id": 969}, {"text": " projects around news publishing will be releasing an international statement of", "start": 3958.42, "stop": 3962.92, "id": 970}, {"text": " solidarity to support some international work. And if you join the coalition", "start": 3962.92, "stop": 3968.38, "id": 971}, {"text": " you'll get to be a part of our first conversations around climate, digital", "start": 3968.38, "stop": 3972.8, "id": 972}, {"text": " libraries and ebooks, which kicked off last Friday with a great conversation with", "start": 3972.8, "stop": 3977.38, "id": 973}, {"text": " Sarah Hutton from UMass Amherst and Max and a fantastic conversation, and it is", "start": 3977.38, "stop": 3996.04, "id": 974}, {"text": " no small feat to keep a conversation going over zoom for over an hour and be so", "start": 3996.04, "stop": 4002.88, "id": 975}, {"text": " captivating and fantastic. So thanks again and have a great", "start": 4002.88, "stop": 4007.8, "id": 976}, {"text": " morning afternoon or evening.", "start": 4007.8, "stop": 4009.32, "id": 977}, {"text": " Again, you can reach out to us at info at library futures.net. And we will", "start": 4010.02, "stop": 4015.36, "id": 978}, {"text": " hopefully see you at future events. Thanks again. Bye bye.", "start": 4015.36, "stop": 4018.32, "id": 979}]}